ivaradi

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  • in reply to: Yahoo Groups Are Going Away #1609
    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    someone please please get me out of the group

    my email is : sgflikchik@aol.com

    —–Original Message—–
    From: 'Bill' william.whittaker1@ntlworld.com [shiponedingroup] <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2019 9:20 am
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Yahoo Groups Are Going Away

     

    

    I can use the invite form in mamnagement
    which wen using your address gives:
     
    István Váradi ivaradi@gmail.com — Invalid Email

    —– Original Message —–
    From:
    István Váradi
    ivaradi@gmail.com [shiponedingroup]
    Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:47
    PM
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Yahoo
    Groups Are Going Away

    Hi Bill,

    could you check if you can send an invite from
    the group to an email address?

    If so, it seems to me that the groups.io transfer can still work. You need to
    create a new group there, and upgrade it to premium for one year. It costs
    $220 when paid in advance for the full year, or $20/month. I am willing to do
    this including paying for it (and then later we can organize some sharing of
    the cost, but let's not try to do it now as time is scarce), but only if you
    can send an invite, as otherwise it will not work. So, please check if you can
    send an invite.


    On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 1:17 PM 'Bill' william.whittaker1@ntlworld.com
    [shiponedingroup] <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    wrote:

     

    
    I was unable to get into the site as it just
    came up 'email address not recognized'.
     
    Interesting because this is the same one as
    they sent the message on!
     
    Anyway I dug out an old laptop I used about 9
    years ago and fortunately on it were the login details of another account
    I'd made to guard against being locked out this and other Yahoo
    groups.
     
    I got to the group panel and have downloaded
    all the files.
     
    So what now?
     
    Bill.
     
     
    —– Original Message —–
    From:
    Chris
    J Brady
    chrisjbrady@yahoo.com [shiponedingroup]
    Sent: Friday, November 29, 2019 9:14
    PM
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re:
    Yahoo Groups Are Going Away

    Who not move the group to IO. But time has just about run out. CJB
    On Friday, 29 November 2019, 20:28:10 GMT, Lee Bonnifield lee78@localnet.com
    [shiponedingroup] <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


     

    Hi István,

    Here are the messages I saved,
    I hope you can use them. I said

    >They're
    in plaintext (including the mail headers)

    but
    they are html format, the way they were distributed. The headers let
    them be displayed in readable format, at least when given to
    Thunderbird
    email. When I put the file "onedin" in among
    other mail boxes while
    Tbird is closed, next time I open
    Tbird it sees the new file and builds
    indexes for it. Then
    I see the messages in chrono order with the html
    correctly
    rendered. I hope this works for you. Please let me know.

    Lee Bonnifield

    On 11/28/19 2:14
    PM, ivaradi@gmail.com
    [shiponedingroup] wrote:
    > Hi Lee,
    >
    >
    > thanks for offering the messages, and
    I would be grateful if you could
    > send them to me,
    including the headers. That way I might be able to
    >
    setup some website where the messages would be displayed in
    > chronological order and perhaps preserving the topic
    structure. Or
    > perhaps a forum into which I could
    import them.
    >
    > István
    >
    >

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    in reply to: Yahoo Groups Are Going Away #1607
    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    can someone please get me out of this group on yahoo and take me off the message list, or get me out of the group on FB.  many thanks, much appreciated.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: István Váradi ivaradi@gmail.com [shiponedingroup] <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2019 8:47 am
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Yahoo Groups Are Going Away

     

    Hi Bill,

    could you check if you can send an invite from the group to an email address?

    If so, it seems to me that the groups.io transfer can still work. You need to create a new group there, and upgrade it to premium for one year. It costs $220 when paid in advance for the full year, or $20/month. I am willing to do this including paying for it (and then later we can organize some sharing of the cost, but let's not try to do it now as time is scarce), but only if you can send an invite, as otherwise it will not work. So, please check if you can send an invite.


    On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 1:17 PM 'Bill' william.whittaker1@ntlworld.com [shiponedingroup] <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

     

    

    I was unable to get into the site as it just came
    up 'email address not recognized'.
     
    Interesting because this is the same one as they
    sent the message on!
     
    Anyway I dug out an old laptop I used about 9 years
    ago and fortunately on it were the login details of another account I'd made to
    guard against being locked out this and other Yahoo groups.
     
    I got to the group panel and have downloaded all
    the files.
     
    So what now?
     
    Bill.
     
     
    —– Original Message —–
    From:
    Chris J Brady
    chrisjbrady@yahoo.com [shiponedingroup]
    Sent: Friday, November 29, 2019 9:14
    PM
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Yahoo
    Groups Are Going Away

    Who not move the group to IO. But time has just about run out. CJB
    On Friday, 29 November 2019, 20:28:10 GMT, Lee Bonnifield lee78@localnet.com [shiponedingroup]
    <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    wrote:


     

    Hi István,

    Here are the messages I saved, I
    hope you can use them. I said

    >They're in
    plaintext (including the mail headers)

    but they
    are html format, the way they were distributed. The headers let
    them be displayed in readable format, at least when given to
    Thunderbird
    email. When I put the file "onedin" in among other
    mail boxes while
    Tbird is closed, next time I open Tbird it
    sees the new file and builds
    indexes for it. Then I see the
    messages in chrono order with the html
    correctly rendered. I
    hope this works for you. Please let me know.

    Lee
    Bonnifield

    On 11/28/19 2:14 PM, ivaradi@gmail.com
    [shiponedingroup] wrote:
    > Hi Lee,
    >
    >
    > thanks for offering the messages, and I
    would be grateful if you could
    > send them to me, including
    the headers. That way I might be able to
    > setup some
    website where the messages would be displayed in
    >
    chronological order and perhaps preserving the topic structure. Or
    > perhaps a forum into which I could import them.
    >
    > István
    >
    >

    [Non-text portions of this
    message have been removed]

    in reply to: questions about sailing #1532
    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    I give up.
     
    I've been building, rigging, restoring and sailing traditional vessels for over 35 years but I can see that being the font on all matters nautical for this group is important to you so I will leave it to you to answer any technical questions in future, okay?

    — On Fri, 17/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

    From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 21:53

     

    Ah-ha! So my reply did finally get through! (Slow as usual.)

    The largest thing I ever sailed on was a 40-ft ketch, and that was about 35 or so years ago. I tried several times to get the ET1 billet on EAGLE, but each time my boss shot down the request saying that I was "too valuable at [my] current command". BS. He was just an incompetent lieutenant moron and needed me to carry him along. (Seriously, he was, and when I was transferred to a different division without sufficient break-in time for my replacement the LT fell flat on his face. He eventually got passed over for promotion twice and was booted out.) I've had several friends get that billet on EAGLE, but not me. And as I've mentioned, since my back injury I haven't done any nautical living history in some years now, so it's that old "use it or lose it" thing. (My terminology is getting rusty, which is why I love discussions like this; people like you help refresh my memory.)

    As for my buoy tender, it was an actual boom. No spars lifted it. On the old A-Class Madrona (the last of the A-Class) it was lifted and moved by four electric motors using cables to work its pullies: one to raise and lower the boom, one to raise and lower the hook, one to pull the boom left, and one to pull it right. When we cross-decked to the refurbed C-Class Cowslip there were only three hydraulically operated pullies: two to raise the boom and also move it right or left, and one for the hook. But it was called a boom, and when we were done working buoys the Deck Chief always reported the boom was "secured in its cradle". (As a side note, when Madrona came out of refurb, she was then a C-Class as well; all of the vintage 1940s 180-ft tenders were C-Classes then.)

    Dino.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:25 pm
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

    Well if it was a spar for hoisting things like a crane then it wasn't a boom but a derek.

    You did once say to me that you had never actually sailed a large sailing vessel didn't you?

    — On Fri, 17/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

    From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 21:15

    Ah, I stand corrected. The crew aboard USCGC Eagle always referred to the boom gallows as the boom cradle. And actually, that's how we referred to the boom gallows on my buoy tender: the cradle. (And the boom was for hoisting buoys, not sails.)

    Dino.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 3:51 pm
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

    Yes, I'm steering!

    It's called a boom gallows…

    The boom would never be that low anyway to need to duck…

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    in reply to: questions about sailing #1528
    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    By the way, have you worked out why there are usually three cutouts for the boom?

    — On Fri, 17/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

    From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 21:36

     

    What?! Another of my replies lost in the bit bucket? I did reply after reading your other post, and the first thing I said was, "I stand corrected". (The reply is probably sitting on the Group site, just like that other one of mine was.)

    Yahoo! Groups – ya gotta love 'em.

    Dino.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:22 pm
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

    Sorry! But I'm going to have to contradict you again.

    It's a gallows and all the cutouts in it are for the boom, the gaff isn't long enough to reach, besides the gaff sits ontop of the furled sail which in turn is on top of the boom so would never lie alongside it. A cradle is what you lash the ships boat into on deck.

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    in reply to: questions about sailing #1527
    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    No, not lost, I read it which is why I felt compelled to reply. You're giving out so much misinformation it's both embarassing for me to see and unfair to those who ask the questions and want correct answers, that's all. 

    — On Fri, 17/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

    From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 21:36

     

    What?! Another of my replies lost in the bit bucket? I did reply after reading your other post, and the first thing I said was, "I stand corrected". (The reply is probably sitting on the Group site, just like that other one of mine was.)

    Yahoo! Groups – ya gotta love 'em.

    Dino.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:22 pm
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

    Sorry! But I'm going to have to contradict you again.

    It's a gallows and all the cutouts in it are for the boom, the gaff isn't long enough to reach, besides the gaff sits ontop of the furled sail which in turn is on top of the boom so would never lie alongside it. A cradle is what you lash the ships boat into on deck.

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    in reply to: questions about sailing #1525
    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    Well if it was a spar for hoisting things like a crane then it wasn't a boom but a derek.
     
    You did once say to me that you had never actually sailed a large sailing vessel didn't you?

    — On Fri, 17/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

    From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 21:15

     

    Ah, I stand corrected. The crew aboard USCGC Eagle always referred to the boom gallows as the boom cradle. And actually, that's how we referred to the boom gallows on my buoy tender: the cradle. (And the boom was for hoisting buoys, not sails.)

    Dino.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 3:51 pm
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

    Yes, I'm steering!

    It's called a boom gallows…

    The boom would never be that low anyway to need to duck…

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    in reply to: questions about sailing #1524
    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    Sorry! But I'm going to have to contradict you again.
     
    It's a gallows and all the cutouts in it are for the boom, the gaff isn't long enough to reach, besides the gaff sits ontop of the furled sail which in turn is on top of the boom so would never lie alongside it. A cradle is what you lash the ships boat into on deck.

    — On Fri, 17/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

    From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 21:09

     

    Not sure about the "oil bags", but that "roll bar" you refer to is called a "cradle", and yes, it is for the boom and the gaff to rest in when the sails are stowed. that's why there's more than one "notch" in the top.

    Also correct in that when the sail is set, the boom will be well clear of the helmsman's head. Even on the Charlotte Rhodes – whose wheel was atop the deck-house – had her boom set high enough that it wouldn't really hit anyone's head if it swung around. (It would indeed have hit the cradle first if it was that low, but the force the boom could carry with it would be enough to smash through the cradle. Oh, the cradle might slow the boom down enough to give a quick-thinking helmsman time to duck, but that's about it.)

    If you look closely at the early episodes when Charlotte Rhodes played a large role, you'll notice that all three of her masts have cradles for their booms and gaffs. The ones for the Main and Foremasts are much lower and narrower than the one for the mizzenmast.

    Dino.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: leebonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 3:39 pm
    Subject: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

    I see the new photo of the Soren Larsen crew standing around the wheel. R, you in there?

    The photo doesn't show the "roll bar" wooden structure that is behind them in TOL, like in the last episode S8N9. Especially during the closing credits you can see that it's positioned so the end of the main mast boom could rest in one of the 3 notches on top of the "roll bar" (what's it really called?) Also the helmsman does not need to duck to avoid the swinging boom because it would hit that structure.

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    in reply to: questions about sailing #1521
    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    Yes, I'm steering!
     
    It's called a boom gallows and wasn't there in the first seasons worth of filming, Tony had only just got the ship seaworthy and was desperately trying to earn money to fit her out, she was bare below decks, we were sleeping on ordinary spring bedsteads screwed down to the floor!, there was no electricity, cooking was done on a coal range and we ate at a table made of long plankd fastened together with simple benches each side. The heads was nicknamed 'The Gludge' and was a wooden shed with a galvanized funnel set in a seat and a bucket on a rope to flush. it was only lashed down so could be moved either side. If you look closely you can see the companionway to the aft accomodation is plywood…..
     
    The boom would never be that low anyway to need to duck.
     
    Like so many land expressions that came from the sea, 'To pour oil on to troubled waters'. Oil slowly seeping out of a canvas bag towed behind a ship would create a slick which would flatten the breaking crest of a wave, messy business though!

    — On Fri, 17/5/13, leebonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

    From: leebonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
    Subject: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 20:39

     

    I see the new photo of the Soren Larsen crew standing around the wheel. R, you in there?

    The photo doesn't show the "roll bar" wooden structure that is behind them in TOL, like in the last episode S8N9. Especially during the closing credits you can see that it's positioned so the end of the main mast boom could rest in one of the 3 notches on top of the "roll bar" (what's it really called?) Also the helmsman does not need to duck to avoid the swinging boom because it would hit that structure.

    And in that episode (46:41) Baines calls for "oil bags" presumably to help smooth the ship's passage while Margarita is giving birth. What are oil bags and how do they help?

    (I probably should have found an old thread or started a new topic sooner, there are other sailing questions answered recently in topics The Running Tide & Onedin Polls)

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    Found it! For some inexplicable reason your email was in the spam folder on a different address of mine!
     
    R.

    — On Thu, 16/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

    From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Thursday, 16 May, 2013, 3:43

     

    No… no contradictions I can think of, Richard. I'll have to see if I can hunt it down, but that's unlikely as our e-mail settings purge sent mail after a day or so. I do think we were on the same wavelength, though. I did elaborate some on my helmsman quals while I was stationed on my buoy tender in the early 1980s and how I got to know my helm to the point that I didn't need a wheel angle indicator or rudder angle indicator to know where my rudder was, or how long it took to get there. (Might have thrown in a sea story or two as well to go along with that.)

    I also made reference to the "master spoke" on a ship's wheel being marked by (usually) a Turk's Head knot, or in some cases a differently carved wheel pin: the master spoke being at the center top of the wheel when the rudder was at amidships (if things were aligned properly). I covered how on my buoy tender one full turn of the wheel gave 6 degrees of rudder, and that on average "full" rudder was considered to be 30 degrees: hard or emergency rudder was 35 degrees – at least on the classes of ships I'd been stationed on.

    I did provide links to images of the steering mechanism you described. I can find them again if my reply is forever lost in the "bit bucket". (Visual aids are good at times like that.)

    Most everything else was on par with what you said, though I may have gone into more detail about freeboard and how that would come into play with heeling and taking water over the rails.

    Dino.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 3:21 pm
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL

    I look forward to seeing your response, wherever it has got to! (sorry if I've contradicted anything you have written!)

    Richard.
    — On Tue, 14/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

    From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 19:39

    Wow! Great reply. I sent one last night answering some of this. I wonder why it never came through?

    Watch… it will show up well after this discussion is over.

    Dino.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 9:17 am
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL

    this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
    trust captains with vague heuristics

    A good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure onboard, his was and still is the final word, onboard. Sadly some actually come to believe it in other aspects of their lives!
    I've sailed with men I trust with my life and others I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit against a strong wind, (watch the Spencer Tracy film 'Captains Couragous', technically very good too) that doesn't mean you neccessarily like the good ones though. One fella I sailed under was a total parentless so & so but his navigation and seamanship was second to none such as entering a particularly difficult harbour in Brittany in thick fog by dead reckoning alone, that is with no electronic navigational aids.

    "That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
    to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."

    Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of gearing to reduce the load on your arms, Soren Larsen used the gearbox from a lorry, sorry, 'truck' for our colonial cousins, earlier ships used custom made 'worm' gearing. All sailing vessels will have a tiller of some sorts whatever steering system is used and it's the tiller that is then moved by another means to allow one man to move the rudder however large, even ships in the time of Columbus used the Whipstaff', a simple and crude method of moving the tiller by pivoting a vertical lever up through a slot in the deck, the lower end attached to the end of the tiller and the upper end pushed to port or starboard to steer. All tillers should have an emergency method of steering should the steering gear fail and mostly that was blocks and tackles rigged either side of the tiller to each side of the vessel, this was how the wheel came into being, as steering evolved the ends of the
    rope tackles could be taken to the bottom of the whipstaff then later in history the whipstaff done away with and to a drum turned by a wheel, many big steamers were still being steered this way centuries later with chains running through tubes along the decks.

    The most important aspect to steering a sailing vessel is to retain some 'feel' in the helm and to be able to make the ship react immediately to any movement of the helm, a straightforward tiller is the best for this but when vessels get larger and the tiller longer with the increased size of the rudder so becomes too difficult to handle some form of gearing has to be introduced which is where one begins to lose feel if not done well or too much.

    Motor vessels are a different kettle of fish, they are being steered to a course not the wind so do not need either an immediate response or the same degree of feel in relation to the wind, many will be designed with what are known as balanced rudders, ie a small section of the rudder area forward of the rudder post which takes most if not all water pressure out of the equasion, a practice never done on sailing vessels as this can kill any feel in a helm completely but can make lighter steering in a motorship which in the early days before servo assisted steering could also allow a smaller wheel to be used.

    As to angle of the rudder, not really in issue except in regards to drag affecting speed, the greater the angle the greater the drag. As to angle of heel vs rudder, the further from vertical the rudder post is the less turning effect the rudder has on the vessel, put simply steering is being lost and the vessel will round up into the wind uncontrolably. This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms, each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to vertical than the other.

    Knowing visually how central or 'midships' the wheel is doesn't really matter and how many full turns it takes to move the rudder only dictates sensitivity, Formula One cars = a fraction of a turn of the wheel and whoosh, it's off the track vs my old Landrover with it's huge wheel = half a turn and it gradually heads for the kerb!
    The feel will tell you if things are out of kilter, too much weather helm, ie too much effort to hold her on a straight course will mean basically she's out of balance and the sails need adjusting, once you've taken the helm and settled into her you'll quickly learn how many spokes are needed to keep her on course, having a mark on the central spoke to feel in the dark or see in daylight is a simple aid to knowing how many spokes are needed for any one course but again not desperately needed.

    In theory on a well balanced vessel yes, if you were to let go of the wheel the rudder should return to midships and if exceptionally well balanced will sail herself with no one touching the wheel or tiller but the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop. Steering means giving her a spoke or two, watch the compass begin it's swing back on course and before she does return the wheel to 'neutral' position and wait for the ship to swing back on course, as the desired course approaches on the compass give her those spokes again to slow her swing, watch for the compass to stop and hopefully settle on the exact course but more likely swing a degree or two past it so re-apply however many spokes are needed to bring her back and so it goes. Basically you're only actually steering her in one direction, she will
    bring herself back the other way. You need to do it!

    Angle of deck before taking water? Too many variables for any hard and fast rules, rule of thumb, maybe 30deg and upwards? Common angles of heel? Anything from horizontal to vertical! (almost joking!) vertical would be a broach or being knocked down, not nice.

    Yes hull shape plays it's part but also the angle of the mast will mean the sails are not working efficiently. if at all and steering compromised.

    The skipper of Osprey passed comment on the owners reproductive ability, intelligence and parentage in that order and in words of two syllables each………(FSB)

    Yes, you've got it spot on with regards spiralling the yards.

    Clean wet decks are slippy! Deck shoes make a huge difference but greasy dirty decks are more slippy when wet. They used sand as well as a stone, an early form of sandpapering!
    Running is just plain dangerous especially on a heaving deck, imagine running and suddenly going weightless, heaven knows where you'd land! The effect increasing at the ends of the ship. Great fun though!

    Coming about is changing course by turning the ship's bows through the eye of the wind, ie the direction the wind is coming from.
    Getting caught in irons is when attempting to go about and the vessel stalls and stops dead in the water pointing straight into the wind and wont turn either way as there's no water passing over the rudder to give steerage. The solution can be to back a headsail or two by pulling it's sheet taught in the hope the wind will get on the wrong side of it and push the head of the ship across, at the same time turn the rudder in the opposite direction to help the stern swing and get the wind in a position where the rest of the sails can fill and begin to get her underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the predicament.
    I have done almost this on the Soren when filming was done in Falmouth we were heading up Channel home to Brightlingsea in Essex and too close in to Portland Bill, the wind suddenly backed and pushed us into Lyme Bay. We had to quickly fire up the engine and motor out of the situation but in the days of sail wiith no motors it would have been a different problem indeed! Sailing pilots (books) all said to give Portland a very wide berth with winds ahead of the beam.

    Leanora's swinging boom? I don't know the episode but booms do swing for all sorts of reasons either with or without sail set.
    If sailing downwind or in very light or flukey winds in a lumpy sea on a rolling ship a boom can suddenly swing or flail about, it is common practice, even on modern yachts, to rig a preventer, a simple length of rope, to hold the boom one side or the other to help control it.

    Cor blimey missus, I should write a book and tell you to buy a copy!!

    Hope that answers all so far? Ask more anytime..

    Richard.

    — On Tue, 14/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

    From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 3:19

    On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:
    > Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?

    Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
    lot easier, what you've provided is useful.

    > Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
    > part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
    > to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
    > centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
    > or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
    > direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
    > I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
    > answer one direct question at a time.

    No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
    to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
    angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.

    > Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
    > of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
    > butter melts then head West',

    this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
    trust captains with vague heuristics

    > wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
    > vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
    > the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
    > at the most two spokes from midships,

    That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
    to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.

    I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
    rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
    how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
    wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
    full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
    of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?

    > as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
    > difficult she is to handle.

    Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
    when boat is heeling?
    I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
    heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
    might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
    horizontal are common?

    > rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
    > in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
    > heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,

    What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
    the rail?

    > the motion
    > threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
    > deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
    > go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !

    Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink

    > 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
    > Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
    > very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
    > direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
    > below that and so on, so

    The bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
    noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
    highest sail luffing.

    > preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
    > 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
    > Helm Down'

    that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
    to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
    the highest small sail is filled again

    > Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
    > hence the name,

    see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
    floats
    Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
    wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?

    What is going on when I hear:
    "I don't want her in irons"
    "prepare to come about"
    Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
    happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
    to leeward

    Lee

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    I'd need to see it to be sure but your description of yards being braced in opposite directions does sound like the vessel is 'hove to' and stopped. Sometimes you might see an old painting with one mast with it's sails 'aback', this may be due to changing course rather than slowing her down or stopping like when picking up a pilot.
     
    When we left New York returning to the UK and were clear of the channel our old man who had been master of Sorlandet for many years decided he wanted to put in a few tacks just for the hell of it, and to give the crew the practice as well.
    It takes a fair amount of time to prepare all the braces so they run free, flaking them out along the deck so they don't tangle and jamb. We tacked her six times in all and by the end of it everyone was totally knackered! I've never seen so much rope covering so much deck but not once was there a jamb…
     
    That TOL episode was possibly an older one? I don't remember full rigged ships in the later episodes. Although I do remember many shots of James and crew taken onboard the Soren and other smaller vessels but when the camera cut to the long shot it wasn't of the ship they were on but some stock shot of a much larger vessel! The Christian Radich being one.
     

    — On Wed, 15/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

    From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Wednesday, 15 May, 2013, 13:41

     

    On 5/15/2013 5:09 AM, R wrote:
    > A fine ship Cap'n, a fine ship and what an adventure!

    Not that it was intended to be a sailing ship, but I should have
    remembered wind blowing the raft backwards because
    our superstructure was so tall. Sometimes we had to row for hours to get
    around a bend in the river.

    > "Huh!" Doesn't translate very well with regards two rudders! I'm
    > guessing it means you haven't seen a yacht with two? Or was that a huh
    > of agreement or approval?

    Surprise that I hadn't figured that out before. I think I've seen yachts
    like that but I passed it off as redundancy and hadn't thought about why
    the rudders weren't parallel. Now that you & Dino mention it it is
    obvious that rudders & sails work best when they're vertical, so I
    understand why there are two rudders at different angles.

    > crew to push/haul the mizzen boom to one side and the main to the other,
    > ie 'goose winged' and with a downstream zephyr slipped the mooring. She

    Somewhere in TOL the square sails are set on 3 masts but fore & mizzen
    are angled parallel to each other, and main is rotated 90 degrees. I
    think that was during an attempt to stop the ship? I guess wind was from
    the side.

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    A fine ship Cap'n, a fine ship and what an adventure!
     
    "Huh!" Doesn't translate very well with regards two rudders! I'm guessing it means you haven't seen a yacht with two? Or was that a huh of agreement or approval?

    The Sea Cloud steering went to show that she was well balanced that's all. I'm almost certain vessels like the Cutty Sark would be the same. It never ceases to amaze me just how small the rudder sometimes is on such large ships, in the Sark's case it's like a modern racing yacht, high aspect, narrow and tall but you can't see it now without paying to get onboard since they built that hideous greenhouse around her! Visually ruined, completely ruined..
     
    Yes, before the advent of mechanical propulsion sailing ships would have to go backwards occasionally, they don't do it very well, in fact mostly in an uncontrollable manner and not for very far, it depends upon the rig. I was once mate onboard the Brixham Trawler 'Provident' and one beautifully tranquil summer dawn on a mooring buoy high up the River Fal in Cornwall I decided to sail her off rather than ruin the peace with the thump thump of the motor, I set all sails, primed the crew to push/haul the mizzen boom to one side and the main to the other, ie 'goose winged' and with a downstream zephyr slipped the mooring. She behaved impeccably actually answering to the helm for a few yards, pirouetted almost on the spot when I wanted her to, all sails filled on the new course and fair stood the wind for France.
    Whilst working on the three mast topsail schooner 'Fulton' in Denmark we regularly sailed on and off quaysides in some ridiculously small harbours, but then most of the crew were direct descendants of Vikings! 
     

    — On Wed, 15/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

    From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Wednesday, 15 May, 2013, 4:10

     

    On 5/14/2013 9:16 AM, R wrote:
    > A good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure

    I know that grave responsibility, as Master under God, from my summer
    after high school as captain of an unpowered trip 400 miles down the
    Alabama River. That's me standing beside the blond who is christening
    the homemade raft –
    http://sdrv.ms/12cgzcR

    > "That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
    > to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."
    >
    >
    > Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of
    > gearing to reduce the load on your arms,

    It isn't the reduction in force that is so rare, it's the analog
    precision — where you could keep Sea Cloud's sails full with a helm
    adjustment as small as 1 spoke, which would be about 1 degree of rudder
    in Dino's example. And I bet the length of the rudder is < 2% of the
    316' length of the ship. That is Formula 1 precision on a much larger
    scale. Such a tiny adjustment of such a small piece would be lost in the
    slop of a machine that is not so well-tuned.

    > This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms,
    > each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to
    > vertical than the other.

    Huh!

    > the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a
    > good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall
    > overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop.

    I didn't know that either.

    (re "in irons")
    > underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the
    > predicament.

    I never knew a sailing ship could go backward! I guess it's a small
    movement, mainly rotating in place.

    Thanks for all the answers!

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    I look forward to seeing your response, wherever it has got to! (sorry if I've contradicted anything you have written!)
     
    Richard.

    — On Tue, 14/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

    From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 19:39

     

    Wow! Great reply. I sent one last night answering some of this. I wonder why it never came through?

    Watch… it will show up well after this discussion is over.

    Dino.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
    To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 9:17 am
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL

    this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
    trust captains with vague heuristics

    A good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure onboard, his was and still is the final word, onboard. Sadly some actually come to believe it in other aspects of their lives!
    I've sailed with men I trust with my life and others I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit against a strong wind, (watch the Spencer Tracy film 'Captains Couragous', technically very good too) that doesn't mean you neccessarily like the good ones though. One fella I sailed under was a total parentless so & so but his navigation and seamanship was second to none such as entering a particularly difficult harbour in Brittany in thick fog by dead reckoning alone, that is with no electronic navigational aids.

    "That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
    to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."

    Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of gearing to reduce the load on your arms, Soren Larsen used the gearbox from a lorry, sorry, 'truck' for our colonial cousins, earlier ships used custom made 'worm' gearing. All sailing vessels will have a tiller of some sorts whatever steering system is used and it's the tiller that is then moved by another means to allow one man to move the rudder however large, even ships in the time of Columbus used the Whipstaff', a simple and crude method of moving the tiller by pivoting a vertical lever up through a slot in the deck, the lower end attached to the end of the tiller and the upper end pushed to port or starboard to steer. All tillers should have an emergency method of steering should the steering gear fail and mostly that was blocks and tackles rigged either side of the tiller to each side of the vessel, this was how the wheel came into being, as steering evolved the ends of the
    rope tackles could be taken to the bottom of the whipstaff then later in history the whipstaff done away with and to a drum turned by a wheel, many big steamers were still being steered this way centuries later with chains running through tubes along the decks.

    The most important aspect to steering a sailing vessel is to retain some 'feel' in the helm and to be able to make the ship react immediately to any movement of the helm, a straightforward tiller is the best for this but when vessels get larger and the tiller longer with the increased size of the rudder so becomes too difficult to handle some form of gearing has to be introduced which is where one begins to lose feel if not done well or too much.

    Motor vessels are a different kettle of fish, they are being steered to a course not the wind so do not need either an immediate response or the same degree of feel in relation to the wind, many will be designed with what are known as balanced rudders, ie a small section of the rudder area forward of the rudder post which takes most if not all water pressure out of the equasion, a practice never done on sailing vessels as this can kill any feel in a helm completely but can make lighter steering in a motorship which in the early days before servo assisted steering could also allow a smaller wheel to be used.

    As to angle of the rudder, not really in issue except in regards to drag affecting speed, the greater the angle the greater the drag. As to angle of heel vs rudder, the further from vertical the rudder post is the less turning effect the rudder has on the vessel, put simply steering is being lost and the vessel will round up into the wind uncontrolably. This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms, each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to vertical than the other.

    Knowing visually how central or 'midships' the wheel is doesn't really matter and how many full turns it takes to move the rudder only dictates sensitivity, Formula One cars = a fraction of a turn of the wheel and whoosh, it's off the track vs my old Landrover with it's huge wheel = half a turn and it gradually heads for the kerb!
    The feel will tell you if things are out of kilter, too much weather helm, ie too much effort to hold her on a straight course will mean basically she's out of balance and the sails need adjusting, once you've taken the helm and settled into her you'll quickly learn how many spokes are needed to keep her on course, having a mark on the central spoke to feel in the dark or see in daylight is a simple aid to knowing how many spokes are needed for any one course but again not desperately needed.

    In theory on a well balanced vessel yes, if you were to let go of the wheel the rudder should return to midships and if exceptionally well balanced will sail herself with no one touching the wheel or tiller but the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop. Steering means giving her a spoke or two, watch the compass begin it's swing back on course and before she does return the wheel to 'neutral' position and wait for the ship to swing back on course, as the desired course approaches on the compass give her those spokes again to slow her swing, watch for the compass to stop and hopefully settle on the exact course but more likely swing a degree or two past it so re-apply however many spokes are needed to bring her back and so it goes. Basically you're only actually steering her in one direction, she will
    bring herself back the other way. You need to do it!

    Angle of deck before taking water? Too many variables for any hard and fast rules, rule of thumb, maybe 30deg and upwards? Common angles of heel? Anything from horizontal to vertical! (almost joking!) vertical would be a broach or being knocked down, not nice.

    Yes hull shape plays it's part but also the angle of the mast will mean the sails are not working efficiently. if at all and steering compromised.

    The skipper of Osprey passed comment on the owners reproductive ability, intelligence and parentage in that order and in words of two syllables each………(FSB)

    Yes, you've got it spot on with regards spiralling the yards.

    Clean wet decks are slippy! Deck shoes make a huge difference but greasy dirty decks are more slippy when wet. They used sand as well as a stone, an early form of sandpapering!
    Running is just plain dangerous especially on a heaving deck, imagine running and suddenly going weightless, heaven knows where you'd land! The effect increasing at the ends of the ship. Great fun though!

    Coming about is changing course by turning the ship's bows through the eye of the wind, ie the direction the wind is coming from.
    Getting caught in irons is when attempting to go about and the vessel stalls and stops dead in the water pointing straight into the wind and wont turn either way as there's no water passing over the rudder to give steerage. The solution can be to back a headsail or two by pulling it's sheet taught in the hope the wind will get on the wrong side of it and push the head of the ship across, at the same time turn the rudder in the opposite direction to help the stern swing and get the wind in a position where the rest of the sails can fill and begin to get her underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the predicament.
    I have done almost this on the Soren when filming was done in Falmouth we were heading up Channel home to Brightlingsea in Essex and too close in to Portland Bill, the wind suddenly backed and pushed us into Lyme Bay. We had to quickly fire up the engine and motor out of the situation but in the days of sail wiith no motors it would have been a different problem indeed! Sailing pilots (books) all said to give Portland a very wide berth with winds ahead of the beam.

    Leanora's swinging boom? I don't know the episode but booms do swing for all sorts of reasons either with or without sail set.
    If sailing downwind or in very light or flukey winds in a lumpy sea on a rolling ship a boom can suddenly swing or flail about, it is common practice, even on modern yachts, to rig a preventer, a simple length of rope, to hold the boom one side or the other to help control it.

    Cor blimey missus, I should write a book and tell you to buy a copy!!

    Hope that answers all so far? Ask more anytime..

    Richard.

    — On Tue, 14/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

    From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 3:19

    On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:
    > Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?

    Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
    lot easier, what you've provided is useful.

    > Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
    > part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
    > to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
    > centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
    > or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
    > direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
    > I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
    > answer one direct question at a time.

    No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
    to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
    angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.

    > Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
    > of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
    > butter melts then head West',

    this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
    trust captains with vague heuristics

    > wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
    > vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
    > the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
    > at the most two spokes from midships,

    That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
    to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.

    I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
    rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
    how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
    wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
    full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
    of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?

    > as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
    > difficult she is to handle.

    Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
    when boat is heeling?
    I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
    heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
    might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
    horizontal are common?

    > rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
    > in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
    > heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,

    What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
    the rail?

    > the motion
    > threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
    > deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
    > go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !

    Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink

    > 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
    > Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
    > very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
    > direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
    > below that and so on, so

    The bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
    noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
    highest sail luffing.

    > preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
    > 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
    > Helm Down'

    that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
    to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
    the highest small sail is filled again

    > Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
    > hence the name,

    see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
    floats
    Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
    wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?

    What is going on when I hear:
    "I don't want her in irons"
    "prepare to come about"
    Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
    happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
    to leeward

    Lee

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    in reply to: Onedin Polls #273
    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    Ha! So that's why my suggestion of another series titled 'Son/Grandson of Onedin' (managing a shipping line of 'stinkpots' but hankering to bring back sail) with yours truly playing the lead fell on deaf ears at the last night party? Wish I'd known affecting a Welsh accent/parentage might have made some difference……..
     
    Richard.  

    — On Tue, 14/5/13, William Murphy <lobsanghoskins@yahoo.com> wrote:

    From: William Murphy <lobsanghoskins@yahoo.com>
    Subject: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls
    To: "shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com" <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
    Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 13:21

     

    Why no Episode 10?

    I worked (Music Adviser) on the last series of the show and can offer some insights into this. The fact is that there was only just a Series 8. BBC Drama (Series and Serials) were very reluctant to commission the last series; they thought that the show had run its course. One problem was that the producer, Geraint Morris, was already thinking about his next commissioned show (King's Royal), and was also working on a new series that was going to showcase Jessica Bentham – The Heywood Files. The Heywood Files went all the way through the commissioning process (I was listed to write the music) before being shot down at the very last moment. At best, Geraint was phoning it in on The Onedin Line's last series, and frequently said so.

    Series 8 was not a happy show. Geraint Morris and veteran director Gerry Blake had a simmering feud at best, fueled largely by Geraint's shameless nepotism and Welsh-centricity; by Series 8, the language of the control gallery was most emphatically Welsh, with the producer, half the directors, half the DA's (one was Geraint's nephew) and the Production Manager leaping into Celtic-language titters at every opportunity, to the snarling fury of all around them (and I write as a Gaelic speaker).  Meanwhile, the script editor (Mervyn Haisman) was driving the show further and further into soap opera, to the horror of the standing cast. Merv the Scribe (as we called him, more or less affectionately) actually drafted an Episode 10 for Series 8, but it had so many insane plot twists and character implausibilities that it was put down long before it could be produced.

    At the end of the very last dub of the very last show, just after Peter had intoned "I've got a son," Gerry Blake turned to me and the Sound Manager and said "Thank God that's over. If we tried to make another series of this thing, someone would get hurt." We then all went and got very, very drunk.

    Bill Scanlan Murphy

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
    trust captains with vague heuristics

    A good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure onboard, his was and still is the final word, onboard. Sadly some actually come to believe it in other aspects of their lives!
    I've sailed with men I trust with my life and others I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit against a strong wind, (watch the Spencer Tracy film 'Captains Couragous', technically very good too) that doesn't mean you neccessarily like the good ones though. One fella I sailed under was a total parentless so & so but his navigation and seamanship was second to none such as entering a particularly difficult harbour in Brittany in thick fog by dead reckoning alone, that is with no electronic navigational aids.
     
    "That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
    to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."

     
    Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of gearing to reduce the load on your arms, Soren Larsen used the gearbox from a lorry, sorry, 'truck' for our colonial cousins, earlier ships used custom made 'worm' gearing. All sailing vessels will have a tiller of some sorts whatever steering system is used and it's the tiller that is then moved by another means to allow one man to move the rudder however large, even ships in the time of Columbus used the Whipstaff', a simple and crude method of moving the tiller by pivoting a vertical lever up through a slot in the deck, the lower end attached to the end of the tiller and the upper end pushed to port or starboard to steer. All tillers should have an emergency method of steering should the steering gear fail and mostly that was blocks and tackles rigged either side of the tiller to each side of the vessel, this was how the wheel came into being, as steering evolved the ends of the
    rope tackles could be taken to the bottom of the whipstaff then later in history the whipstaff done away with and to a drum turned by a wheel, many big steamers were still being steered this way centuries later with chains running through tubes along the decks.
     
    The most important aspect to steering a sailing vessel is to retain some 'feel' in the helm and to be able to make the ship react immediately to any movement of the helm, a straightforward tiller is the best for this but when vessels get larger and the tiller longer with the increased size of the rudder so becomes too difficult to handle some form of gearing has to be introduced which is where one begins to lose feel if not done well or too much.
     
    Motor vessels are a different kettle of fish, they are being steered to a course not the wind so do not need either an immediate response or the same degree of feel in relation to the wind, many will be designed with what are known as balanced rudders, ie a small section of the rudder area forward of the rudder post which takes most if not all water pressure out of the equasion, a practice never done on sailing vessels as this can kill any feel in a helm completely but can make lighter steering in a motorship which in the early days before servo assisted steering could also allow a smaller wheel to be used.  

    As to angle of the rudder, not really in issue except in regards to drag affecting speed, the greater the angle the greater the drag. As to angle of heel vs rudder, the further from vertical the rudder post is the less turning effect the rudder has on the vessel, put simply steering is being lost and the vessel will round up into the wind uncontrolably. This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms, each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to vertical than the other.
     
    Knowing visually how central or 'midships' the wheel is doesn't really matter and how many full turns it takes to move the rudder only dictates sensitivity, Formula One cars = a fraction of a turn of the wheel and whoosh, it's off the track vs my old Landrover with it's huge wheel = half a turn and it gradually heads for the kerb! 
    The feel will tell you if things are out of kilter, too much weather helm, ie too much effort to hold her on a straight course will mean basically she's out of balance and the sails need adjusting, once you've taken the helm and settled into her you'll quickly learn how many spokes are needed to keep her on course, having a mark on the central spoke to feel in the dark or see in daylight is a simple aid to knowing how many spokes are needed for any one course but again not desperately needed.
     
    In theory on a well balanced vessel yes, if you were to let go of the wheel the rudder should return to midships and if exceptionally well balanced will sail herself with no one touching the wheel or tiller but the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop. Steering means giving her a spoke or two, watch the compass begin it's swing back on course and before she does return the wheel to 'neutral' position and wait for the ship to swing back on course, as the desired course approaches on the compass give her those spokes again to slow her swing, watch for the compass to stop and hopefully settle on the exact course but more likely swing a degree or two past it so re-apply however many spokes are needed to bring her back and so it goes. Basically you're only actually steering her in one direction, she will
    bring herself back the other way. You need to do it! 
     
    Angle of deck before taking water? Too many variables for any hard and fast rules, rule of thumb, maybe 30deg and upwards? Common angles of heel? Anything from horizontal to vertical! (almost joking!) vertical would be a broach or being knocked down, not nice.
     
    Yes hull shape plays it's part but also the angle of the mast will mean the sails are not working efficiently. if at all and steering compromised.
     
    The skipper of Osprey passed comment on the owners reproductive ability, intelligence and parentage in that order and in words of two syllables each………(FSB)
     
    Yes, you've got it spot on with regards spiralling the yards.
     
    Clean wet decks are slippy! Deck shoes make a huge difference but greasy dirty decks are more slippy when wet. They used sand as well as a stone, an early form of sandpapering!
    Running is just plain dangerous especially on a heaving deck, imagine running and suddenly going weightless, heaven knows where you'd land! The effect increasing at the ends of the ship. Great fun though!
     
    Coming about is changing course by turning the ship's bows through the eye of the wind, ie the direction the wind is coming from.
    Getting caught in irons is when attempting to go about and the vessel stalls and stops dead in the water pointing straight into the wind and wont turn either way as there's no water passing over the rudder to give steerage. The solution can be to back a headsail or two by pulling it's sheet taught in the hope the wind will get on the wrong side of it and push the head of the ship across, at the same time turn the rudder in the opposite direction to help the stern swing and get the wind in a position where the rest of the sails can fill and begin to get her underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the predicament.
    I have done almost this on the Soren when filming was done in Falmouth we were heading up Channel home to Brightlingsea in Essex and too close in to Portland Bill, the wind suddenly backed and pushed us into Lyme Bay. We had to quickly fire up the engine and motor out of the situation but in the days of sail wiith no motors it would have been a different problem indeed! Sailing pilots (books) all said to give Portland a very wide berth with winds ahead of the beam.
     
    Leanora's swinging boom? I don't know the episode but booms do swing for all sorts of reasons either with or without sail set.
    If sailing downwind or in very light or flukey winds in a lumpy sea on a rolling ship a boom can suddenly swing or flail about, it is common practice, even on modern yachts, to rig a preventer, a simple length of rope, to hold the boom one side or the other to help control it.
     
    Cor blimey missus, I should write a book and tell you to buy a copy!!
     
    Hope that answers all so far? Ask more anytime..
     
    Richard. 
     

    — On Tue, 14/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

    From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 3:19

     

    On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:
    > Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?

    Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
    lot easier, what you've provided is useful.

    > Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
    > part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
    > to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
    > centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
    > or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
    > direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
    > I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
    > answer one direct question at a time.

    No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
    to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
    angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.

    > Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
    > of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
    > butter melts then head West',

    this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
    trust captains with vague heuristics

    > wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
    > vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
    > the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
    > at the most two spokes from midships,

    That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
    to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.

    I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
    rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
    how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
    wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
    full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
    of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?
     
    > as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
    > difficult she is to handle.

    Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
    when boat is heeling?
    I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
    heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
    might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
    horizontal are common?

    > rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
    > in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
    > heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,

    What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
    the rail?

    > the motion
    > threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
    > deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
    > go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !

    Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink

    > 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
    > Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
    > very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
    > direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
    > below that and so on, so

    The bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
    noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
    highest sail luffing.

    > preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
    > 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
    > Helm Down'

    that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
    to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
    the highest small sail is filled again

    > Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
    > hence the name,

    see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
    floats
    Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
    wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?

    What is going on when I hear:
    "I don't want her in irons"
    "prepare to come about"
    Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
    happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
    to leeward

    Lee

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    ivaradi
    Keymaster
    The important thing to remember about both TRT & TOL is that neither are gospel, nor for that matter is anything I might say. Nothing is set in stone and there were differences from ship to ship, owner to owner and country to country but some things you see and hear are just plain wrong in any language.
     
    Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh? Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails, I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to answer one direct question at a time.
     
    Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the butter melts then head West', then with regular astronomical calculation, both of stars (Pole star being incredibly simple) and sun, stay on that Lat and guesstimate Long from ships speed but huge margins for error. You are correct, with the advent of accurate timepieces a noon sighting anywhere around the globe could be accurately timed in relation to the time at Greenwich and by knowing from a book of tables what time noon was at Greenwich it became a simple thing to calculate Long. Having accurate time also meant sightings could be taken at any time of the day and then related to noon. 
     
    The greater part of what I've seen so far in TRT is correct so don't dismiss it as a source of information, I only wanted to point out the occasional error or cultural differences. Even US presidents have been rubbish at world geography and history so don't expect better from film makers! Having lived in the States and sailed with many 'Wild Geese' I have discovered a similar blinkered view of the rest of the world which is hardly surprising when you watch their TV news, centric? I'll say it is! On one memorable occasion in Pennsylvania a seemingly intelligent young man on hearing I was from England said "That's in Russia isn't it, so you're a Communist then?"……………!
     
    Steering can be a wonderful experience, it's where man and ship communicate, you feel her, she responds to your hand, with all sails tuned and a steady wind she can even sometimes steer herself for long periods. The first time I took the helm on Sea Cloud I was very pleasantly surprised. All  four masts fully clad with sails, a brisk Mediterranean breeze and as she picked up her skirts, heeling to the wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or at the most two spokes from midships, that's 316ft of four mast barque, incredible! But as Mr.Masefield points out, it can be a drudge and all you want is to get below and into your bunk.
     
    As to what to do, well, hopefully someone with intelligence has calculated a safe course to steer, hopefully the wind is in the right direction and strength to allow the sails to use that wind to best advantage, the strength of the wind will dictate how much sail is to be set as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more difficult she is to handle. The man at the wheel is given a course to steer by the officer of the watch and he must do all he can to keep her on that course as accurately as he can. If there is a change of course to reach ones destination or the wind changes strength or direction then the sails will need adjustment accordingly. On my first Atlantic crossing on the Barquentine Osprey in 1976 the American owner with very little sailing experience was officer of the watch with three crew, the rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
    heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail, the motion threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !
    The first I knew of it was a very insistent shout from the skipper of "All hands on deck!" waking me from my dreams, we didn't even have time to dress, 8 lads in underwear and bare feet 100ft up in the dark with rain squalls trying to reduce sail! Several years later she went down with the loss of all but one hand in a typhoon the S.China Sea.
    All vessels need to be tuned at all times for safety and efficiency so you see both helmsman and officer of the watch are responsible for the safety of the ship and those asleep below and no amount of book reading can give you that knowledge.
     
    A finer detail of how a helmsman steers a square rigger is to note, if ever you get the chance, that the yards on each mast are sometimes set with a bit of a spiral when looking up from the deck, we called it 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one below that and so on, so should the wind change direction suddenly or a sloppy helmsman let the vessel round up into the wind too much he will get some warning by hopefully hearing the sound of  the smallest sail flapping but more preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the Helm Down' to stop the larger lower sails 'Getting Caught Aback'. The helmsman's job is to keep the sails full. The officer of
    the watch would then inform the captain and he might possibly order hands to braces to swing all of the yards around to allow the ship to be brought back on course with the new wind direction.
     
    Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible, hence the name, is primarily simply to keep the decks clean, a ship gets very dirty in port, shore side feet tramping all over her, dust and dirt off the quayside, dirty cargoes being un/loaded, in hot sun the pitch might melt from between the planking and make a right mess, if they'd had Karcher high pressure patio scrubbers I'm sure they would have used those! Like houses with wooden decking it's all about pride and keeping everything looking good. On board a ship you also needed to keep the crew on watch busy and some captains would 'haze' or invent jobs for that purpose, holy stoning was sometimes one of them.
     
    As for splinters, not really, a tree can be cut up into sections at the sawmill in a variety of ways and certain cuts are specific to the job, planking is cut one way from a tree so that it will bend more easily, decking another way so that it wont bend and by coincidence the top face of that cut means the grain will be running in a certain direction which greatly lessens the chance of splinters. Teak was the best material for decks and is a short grained wood anyway, if you can look at the leg of a teak coffee/dining table and note the pattern on two different faces you might get some idea.
    Douglas Fir or similar would be the 'economy' deck, the sort James would specify to the shipwright and in those days Douglas could be had in very long straight grained lengths, ideal for the job and when 'Quarter Sawn', an uneconomical cut due to excessive waste, could also produce good clear decking material with little chance of splinters. In many respects holy stoning would mean a less slippery deck as any grease or other slippery substances would get removed giving better traction.
     
    So endeth today's sermon, amen!
     
    R. 

    — On Sat, 11/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

    From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
    Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
    To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 20:34

     

    On 5/11/2013 4:34 AM, R wrote:
    > If you really want me to I shall watch them all again and take notes?

    Really? I guess I'm the only one here who connects TRT with TOL so I
    understand if detail about TRT is off topic. On the other hand, your
    personal participation in TOL is an ON topic flag I bet. I guess I
    won't impose as much as asking you to make that effort, but really, I
    would appreciate seeing your notes on TRT! I'm interested in how
    sails/wind/rudder/freeboard/mast location interact, and if I got the
    wrong idea from TRT (or even TOL) I'd like to know better. This is a
    great opportunity to get education from experts without having to search
    for it!

    It takes longer to upload these TRT episodes than I expected, I have 3
    more ready but no schedule to get to the neighbor's uplink. #9 is
    audible but video is so shaky I may try to extract it again. Every pass
    of an old VHS cassette over the VCR heads threatens to clog the heads,
    so I can't guarantee getting #10-15. When I add anything to the
    collection (#1-5 so far) at
    http://sdrv.ms/12cgzcR
    I'll announce it here.

    > I did say 'implied' discovering Longitude, some mention of Harrison
    > whould have removed that implication.

    I agree. Probably US-centrism was the reason for mentioning Sumner
    instead. The TRT claim that prior to Sumner longitude was measured by
    "time zone difference" sounds stupid, there were no time "zones" at sea,
    right? Knowing the time in Greenwich when the local time is measureable
    by solar noon or some other celestial orientation is vital. Harrison
    discovered the mechanical technique that made clocks accurate enough to
    measure longitude by precise time difference.

    > Masefield's long trick is a reference to steering (with the helm!).
    > Contrary to common belief steering is often more disliked than any other
    > duty onboard primarily because it can be incredibly boring,
    > alone, constantly watching a compass or physically exhausting fighting a
    > kicking wheel and the hour 'trick' one does at the wheel can feel an
    > eternity, woebetide any man late to take his turn at the wheel
    > especially on a cold wet night!

    That is a surprise, I thought it would be easy duty. It's not clear to
    me how helmsman or officer decides what he can do with the wheel is not
    adequate and sails or course must be adjusted.

    What is the purpose of holystoning the deck? Is holystone pumice? Seems
    like wet polishing would eliminate splinters for barefoot sailors, but
    also eliminate all traction when wet ?!

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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