[galacticprobe]

Richard,

This may very well be my last post on this forum, but…

I see no need to get unfriendly, here. I obviously had a term wrong (cradle when it should have been gallows), which I admitted that I stood corrected on that.

You brought up the issue of a derrick vs. a boom, presumable with regards to my statement about my buoy tender. I then simply explained why I was using the term "cradle", and I admitted that I had grown rusty with my terminology after being away from participating in nautical living history. I believe I also said that I was glad to have someone like you to refresh my memory.

In review (and this is in the e-mail chain below): I admitted that "I stand corrected" on the gallows issue. I explained why I used the term "cradle". I praised you for your knowledge and how it refreshed mine.

In return: you attack me and accuse me of wanting to be "the font of all matters nautical" just because I wanted you to understand why I said what I did?

I admit – again – that I've gotten rusty, and again say that I am happy to have someone like you here to correct me when I'm wrong.

So now I ask you… why the personal attack against me for that?

As I await your response, I am entering "lurk mode". I will reply to your response as required, however since my fading knowledge and memories are so offending, I will no longer reply to any other posts unless specifically asked to do so by the person posting, or by a Moderator.

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

I give up.

I've been building, rigging, restoring and sailing traditional vessels for over 35 years but I can see that being the font on all matters nautical for this group is important to you so I will leave it to you to answer any technical questions in future, okay?

— On Fri, 17/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 21:53

Ah-ha! So my reply did finally get through! (Slow as usual.)

The largest thing I ever sailed on was a 40-ft ketch, and that was about 35 or so years ago. I tried several times to get the ET1 billet on EAGLE, but each time my boss shot down the request saying that I was "too valuable at [my] current command". BS. He was just an incompetent lieutenant moron and needed me to carry him along. (Seriously, he was, and when I was transferred to a different division without sufficient break-in time for my replacement the LT fell flat on his face. He eventually got passed over for promotion twice and was booted out.) I've had several friends get that billet on EAGLE, but not me. And as I've mentioned, since my back injury I haven't done any nautical living history in some years now, so it's that old "use it or lose it" thing. (My terminology is getting rusty, which is why I love discussions like this; people like you help refresh my memory.)

As for my buoy tender, it was an actual boom. No spars lifted it. On the old A-Class Madrona (the last of the A-Class) it was lifted and moved by four electric motors using cables to work its pullies: one to raise and lower the boom, one to raise and lower the hook, one to pull the boom left, and one to pull it right. When we cross-decked to the refurbed C-Class Cowslip there were only three hydraulically operated pullies: two to raise the boom and also move it right or left, and one for the hook. But it was called a boom, and when we were done working buoys the Deck Chief always reported the boom was "secured in its cradle". (As a side note, when Madrona came out of refurb, she was then a C-Class as well; all of the vintage 1940s 180-ft tenders were C-Classes then.)

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:25 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

Well if it was a spar for hoisting things like a crane then it wasn't a boom but a derek.

You did once say to me that you had never actually sailed a large sailing vessel didn't you?

— On Fri, 17/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 21:15

Ah, I stand corrected. The crew aboard USCGC Eagle always referred to the boom gallows as the boom cradle. And actually, that's how we referred to the boom gallows on my buoy tender: the cradle. (And the boom was for hoisting buoys, not sails.)

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

Yes, I'm steering!

It's called a boom gallows…

The boom would never be that low anyway to need to duck…

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

Sorry about that. I don't mean to be. Just trying to help, and (if you've seen my other reply – which they seem to be crossing each other in some sort of time-lag) I do admit I've gotten rusty in the years that I haven't done nautical living history.

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

No, not lost, I read it which is why I felt compelled to reply. You're giving out so much misinformation it's both embarassing for me to see and unfair to those who ask the questions and want correct answers, that's all.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

Now that's one that's always eluded me.

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:48 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

By the way, have you worked out why there are usually three cutouts for the boom?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

Ah-ha! So my reply did finally get through! (Slow as usual.)

The largest thing I ever sailed on was a 40-ft ketch, and that was about 35 or so years ago. I tried several times to get the ET1 billet on EAGLE, but each time my boss shot down the request saying that I was "too valuable at [my] current command". BS. He was just an incompetent lieutenant moron and needed me to carry him along. (Seriously, he was, and when I was transferred to a different division without sufficient break-in time for my replacement the LT fell flat on his face. He eventually got passed over for promotion twice and was booted out.) I've had several friends get that billet on EAGLE, but not me. And as I've mentioned, since my back injury I haven't done any nautical living history in some years now, so it's that old "use it or lose it" thing. (My terminology is getting rusty, which is why I love discussions like this; people like you help refresh my memory.)

As for my buoy tender, it was an actual boom. No spars lifted it. On the old A-Class Madrona (the last of the A-Class) it was lifted and moved by four electric motors using cables to work its pullies: one to raise and lower the boom, one to raise and lower the hook, one to pull the boom left, and one to pull it right. When we cross-decked to the refurbed C-Class Cowslip there were only three hydraulically operated pullies: two to raise the boom and also move it right or left, and one for the hook. But it was called a boom, and when we were done working buoys the Deck Chief always reported the boom was "secured in its cradle". (As a side note, when Madrona came out of refurb, she was then a C-Class as well; all of the vintage 1940s 180-ft tenders were C-Classes then.)

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:25 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

Well if it was a spar for hoisting things like a crane then it wasn't a boom but a derek.

You did once say to me that you had never actually sailed a large sailing vessel didn't you?

— On Fri, 17/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 21:15

Ah, I stand corrected. The crew aboard USCGC Eagle always referred to the boom gallows as the boom cradle. And actually, that's how we referred to the boom gallows on my buoy tender: the cradle. (And the boom was for hoisting buoys, not sails.)

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

Yes, I'm steering!

It's called a boom gallows…

The boom would never be that low anyway to need to duck…

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

What?! Another of my replies lost in the bit bucket? I did reply after reading your other post, and the first thing I said was, "I stand corrected". (The reply is probably sitting on the Group site, just like that other one of mine was.)

Yahoo! Groups – ya gotta love 'em.

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

Sorry! But I'm going to have to contradict you again.

It's a gallows and all the cutouts in it are for the boom, the gaff isn't long enough to reach, besides the gaff sits ontop of the furled sail which in turn is on top of the boom so would never lie alongside it. A cradle is what you lash the ships boat into on deck.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

Ah, I stand corrected. The crew aboard USCGC Eagle always referred to the boom gallows as the boom cradle. And actually, that's how we referred to the boom gallows on my buoy tender: the cradle. (And the boom was for hoisting buoys, not sails.)

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

Yes, I'm steering!

It's called a boom gallows…

The boom would never be that low anyway to need to duck…

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

Not sure about the "oil bags", but that "roll bar" you refer to is called a "cradle", and yes, it is for the boom and the gaff to rest in when the sails are stowed. that's why there's more than one "notch" in the top.

Also correct in that when the sail is set, the boom will be well clear of the helmsman's head. Even on the Charlotte Rhodes – whose wheel was atop the deck-house – had her boom set high enough that it wouldn't really hit anyone's head if it swung around. (It would indeed have hit the cradle first if it was that low, but the force the boom could carry with it would be enough to smash through the cradle. Oh, the cradle might slow the boom down enough to give a quick-thinking helmsman time to duck, but that's about it.)

If you look closely at the early episodes when Charlotte Rhodes played a large role, you'll notice that all three of her masts have cradles for their booms and gaffs. The ones for the Main and Foremasts are much lower and narrower than the one for the mizzenmast.

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: leebonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 3:39 pm
Subject: [shiponedingroup] questions about sailing

I see the new photo of the Soren Larsen crew standing around the wheel. R, you in there?

The photo doesn't show the "roll bar" wooden structure that is behind them in TOL, like in the last episode S8N9. Especially during the closing credits you can see that it's positioned so the end of the main mast boom could rest in one of the 3 notches on top of the "roll bar" (what's it really called?) Also the helmsman does not need to duck to avoid the swinging boom because it would hit that structure.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

Okay… just checked on the Group site and sure enough, my reply is there (message #1433 if anyone wants to look it up: showed up on the board May 14th at 1:52 am, according to the listing).

Strange that I never got a copy of it when I usually get a copy of all my other replies. But then Yahoo! Groups has done that to me before.

Go figure.

But just to clarify the master spoke and Turk's Head, it's not so much for marking rudder position; it's to mark the master spoke and "wheel" position so the helmsman can keep count of how many turns of the wheel he's made. (It's also so he can quickly find the master spoke in the blackness of night.) If he only makes a quarter or half turn, he's got to keep that in his head as well. If he's a good helmsman – which he should be if he's standing that watch alone – then he'll know how many degrees of rudder one full turn of the wheel will give. On my buoy tender one turn was 6 degrees; that's not going to be the same for all ships so a helmsman will have to "get the feel" each time he take the wheel of a different lady (so to speak).

Dino.

— In shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com, "LambuLambu@…" <LambuLambu@…> wrote:
>
> Wait… does that mean my reply DID come through? But that I just didn't get a copy of it?
>
>
> Dino.
>
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@…>
> To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 4:44 pm
> Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
>
> On 5/14/2013 1:52 AM, LambuLambu@… wrote:> Wow! Loads more
> questions. I'll tackle a few so the burden doesn't fall
> all on R. (I'll snip some bits below and leave the bits I'll try to answer.)
>
> Thanks for the explanations & photos! I can see how that double screw
> works. And now I remember seeing a turks head knot on a wheel spoke, I
> hadn't thought about it marking rudder position.
>

[galacticprobe]

Wait… does that mean my reply DID come through? But that I just didn't get a copy of it?

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 4:44 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL

On 5/14/2013 1:52 AM, LambuLambu@aol.com wrote:> Wow! Loads more
questions. I'll tackle a few so the burden doesn't fall

> all on R. (I'll snip some bits below and leave the bits I'll try to answer.)

Thanks for the explanations & photos! I can see how that double screw
works. And now I remember seeing a turks head knot on a wheel spoke, I
hadn't thought about it marking rudder position.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

No… no contradictions I can think of, Richard. I'll have to see if I can hunt it down, but that's unlikely as our e-mail settings purge sent mail after a day or so. I do think we were on the same wavelength, though. I did elaborate some on my helmsman quals while I was stationed on my buoy tender in the early 1980s and how I got to know my helm to the point that I didn't need a wheel angle indicator or rudder angle indicator to know where my rudder was, or how long it took to get there. (Might have thrown in a sea story or two as well to go along with that.)

I also made reference to the "master spoke" on a ship's wheel being marked by (usually) a Turk's Head knot, or in some cases a differently carved wheel pin: the master spoke being at the center top of the wheel when the rudder was at amidships (if things were aligned properly). I covered how on my buoy tender one full turn of the wheel gave 6 degrees of rudder, and that on average "full" rudder was considered to be 30 degrees: hard or emergency rudder was 35 degrees – at least on the classes of ships I'd been stationed on.

I did provide links to images of the steering mechanism you described. I can find them again if my reply is forever lost in the "bit bucket". (Visual aids are good at times like that.)

Most everything else was on par with what you said, though I may have gone into more detail about freeboard and how that would come into play with heeling and taking water over the rails.

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 3:21 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL

I look forward to seeing your response, wherever it has got to! (sorry if I've contradicted anything you have written!)

Richard.

— On Tue, 14/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 19:39

Wow! Great reply. I sent one last night answering some of this. I wonder why it never came through?

Watch… it will show up well after this discussion is over.

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 9:17 am
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL

this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics

A good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure onboard, his was and still is the final word, onboard. Sadly some actually come to believe it in other aspects of their lives!
I've sailed with men I trust with my life and others I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit against a strong wind, (watch the Spencer Tracy film 'Captains Couragous', technically very good too) that doesn't mean you neccessarily like the good ones though. One fella I sailed under was a total parentless so & so but his navigation and seamanship was second to none such as entering a particularly difficult harbour in Brittany in thick fog by dead reckoning alone, that is with no electronic navigational aids.

"That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."

Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of gearing to reduce the load on your arms, Soren Larsen used the gearbox from a lorry, sorry, 'truck' for our colonial cousins, earlier ships used custom made 'worm' gearing. All sailing vessels will have a tiller of some sorts whatever steering system is used and it's the tiller that is then moved by another means to allow one man to move the rudder however large, even ships in the time of Columbus used the Whipstaff', a simple and crude method of moving the tiller by pivoting a vertical lever up through a slot in the deck, the lower end attached to the end of the tiller and the upper end pushed to port or starboard to steer. All tillers should have an emergency method of steering should the steering gear fail and mostly that was blocks and tackles rigged either side of the tiller to each side of the vessel, this was how the wheel came into being, as steering evolved the ends of the
rope tackles could be taken to the bottom of the whipstaff then later in history the whipstaff done away with and to a drum turned by a wheel, many big steamers were still being steered this way centuries later with chains running through tubes along the decks.

The most important aspect to steering a sailing vessel is to retain some 'feel' in the helm and to be able to make the ship react immediately to any movement of the helm, a straightforward tiller is the best for this but when vessels get larger and the tiller longer with the increased size of the rudder so becomes too difficult to handle some form of gearing has to be introduced which is where one begins to lose feel if not done well or too much.

Motor vessels are a different kettle of fish, they are being steered to a course not the wind so do not need either an immediate response or the same degree of feel in relation to the wind, many will be designed with what are known as balanced rudders, ie a small section of the rudder area forward of the rudder post which takes most if not all water pressure out of the equasion, a practice never done on sailing vessels as this can kill any feel in a helm completely but can make lighter steering in a motorship which in the early days before servo assisted steering could also allow a smaller wheel to be used.

As to angle of the rudder, not really in issue except in regards to drag affecting speed, the greater the angle the greater the drag. As to angle of heel vs rudder, the further from vertical the rudder post is the less turning effect the rudder has on the vessel, put simply steering is being lost and the vessel will round up into the wind uncontrolably. This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms, each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to vertical than the other.

Knowing visually how central or 'midships' the wheel is doesn't really matter and how many full turns it takes to move the rudder only dictates sensitivity, Formula One cars = a fraction of a turn of the wheel and whoosh, it's off the track vs my old Landrover with it's huge wheel = half a turn and it gradually heads for the kerb!
The feel will tell you if things are out of kilter, too much weather helm, ie too much effort to hold her on a straight course will mean basically she's out of balance and the sails need adjusting, once you've taken the helm and settled into her you'll quickly learn how many spokes are needed to keep her on course, having a mark on the central spoke to feel in the dark or see in daylight is a simple aid to knowing how many spokes are needed for any one course but again not desperately needed.

In theory on a well balanced vessel yes, if you were to let go of the wheel the rudder should return to midships and if exceptionally well balanced will sail herself with no one touching the wheel or tiller but the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop. Steering means giving her a spoke or two, watch the compass begin it's swing back on course and before she does return the wheel to 'neutral' position and wait for the ship to swing back on course, as the desired course approaches on the compass give her those spokes again to slow her swing, watch for the compass to stop and hopefully settle on the exact course but more likely swing a degree or two past it so re-apply however many spokes are needed to bring her back and so it goes. Basically you're only actually steering her in one direction, she will
bring herself back the other way. You need to do it!

Angle of deck before taking water? Too many variables for any hard and fast rules, rule of thumb, maybe 30deg and upwards? Common angles of heel? Anything from horizontal to vertical! (almost joking!) vertical would be a broach or being knocked down, not nice.

Yes hull shape plays it's part but also the angle of the mast will mean the sails are not working efficiently. if at all and steering compromised.

The skipper of Osprey passed comment on the owners reproductive ability, intelligence and parentage in that order and in words of two syllables each………(FSB)

Yes, you've got it spot on with regards spiralling the yards.

Clean wet decks are slippy! Deck shoes make a huge difference but greasy dirty decks are more slippy when wet. They used sand as well as a stone, an early form of sandpapering!
Running is just plain dangerous especially on a heaving deck, imagine running and suddenly going weightless, heaven knows where you'd land! The effect increasing at the ends of the ship. Great fun though!

Coming about is changing course by turning the ship's bows through the eye of the wind, ie the direction the wind is coming from.
Getting caught in irons is when attempting to go about and the vessel stalls and stops dead in the water pointing straight into the wind and wont turn either way as there's no water passing over the rudder to give steerage. The solution can be to back a headsail or two by pulling it's sheet taught in the hope the wind will get on the wrong side of it and push the head of the ship across, at the same time turn the rudder in the opposite direction to help the stern swing and get the wind in a position where the rest of the sails can fill and begin to get her underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the predicament.
I have done almost this on the Soren when filming was done in Falmouth we were heading up Channel home to Brightlingsea in Essex and too close in to Portland Bill, the wind suddenly backed and pushed us into Lyme Bay. We had to quickly fire up the engine and motor out of the situation but in the days of sail wiith no motors it would have been a different problem indeed! Sailing pilots (books) all said to give Portland a very wide berth with winds ahead of the beam.

Leanora's swinging boom? I don't know the episode but booms do swing for all sorts of reasons either with or without sail set.
If sailing downwind or in very light or flukey winds in a lumpy sea on a rolling ship a boom can suddenly swing or flail about, it is common practice, even on modern yachts, to rig a preventer, a simple length of rope, to hold the boom one side or the other to help control it.

Cor blimey missus, I should write a book and tell you to buy a copy!!

Hope that answers all so far? Ask more anytime..

Richard.

— On Tue, 14/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 3:19

On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:
> Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?

Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
lot easier, what you've provided is useful.

> Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
> part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
> to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
> centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
> or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
> direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
> I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
> answer one direct question at a time.

No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.

> Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
> of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
> butter melts then head West',

this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics

> wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
> vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
> the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
> at the most two spokes from midships,

That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.

I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?

> as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
> difficult she is to handle.

Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
when boat is heeling?
I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
horizontal are common?

> rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
> in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
> heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,

What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
the rail?

> the motion
> threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
> deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
> go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !

Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink

> 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
> Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
> very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
> direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
> below that and so on, so

The bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
highest sail luffing.

> preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
> 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
> Helm Down'

that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
the highest small sail is filled again

> Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
> hence the name,

see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
floats
Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?

What is going on when I hear:
"I don't want her in irons"
"prepare to come about"
Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
to leeward

Lee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

Wow! Great reply. I sent one last night answering some of this. I wonder why it never came through?

Watch… it will show up well after this discussion is over.

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 9:17 am
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL

this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics

A good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure onboard, his was and still is the final word, onboard. Sadly some actually come to believe it in other aspects of their lives!
I've sailed with men I trust with my life and others I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit against a strong wind, (watch the Spencer Tracy film 'Captains Couragous', technically very good too) that doesn't mean you neccessarily like the good ones though. One fella I sailed under was a total parentless so & so but his navigation and seamanship was second to none such as entering a particularly difficult harbour in Brittany in thick fog by dead reckoning alone, that is with no electronic navigational aids.

"That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."

Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of gearing to reduce the load on your arms, Soren Larsen used the gearbox from a lorry, sorry, 'truck' for our colonial cousins, earlier ships used custom made 'worm' gearing. All sailing vessels will have a tiller of some sorts whatever steering system is used and it's the tiller that is then moved by another means to allow one man to move the rudder however large, even ships in the time of Columbus used the Whipstaff', a simple and crude method of moving the tiller by pivoting a vertical lever up through a slot in the deck, the lower end attached to the end of the tiller and the upper end pushed to port or starboard to steer. All tillers should have an emergency method of steering should the steering gear fail and mostly that was blocks and tackles rigged either side of the tiller to each side of the vessel, this was how the wheel came into being, as steering evolved the ends of the
rope tackles could be taken to the bottom of the whipstaff then later in history the whipstaff done away with and to a drum turned by a wheel, many big steamers were still being steered this way centuries later with chains running through tubes along the decks.

The most important aspect to steering a sailing vessel is to retain some 'feel' in the helm and to be able to make the ship react immediately to any movement of the helm, a straightforward tiller is the best for this but when vessels get larger and the tiller longer with the increased size of the rudder so becomes too difficult to handle some form of gearing has to be introduced which is where one begins to lose feel if not done well or too much.

Motor vessels are a different kettle of fish, they are being steered to a course not the wind so do not need either an immediate response or the same degree of feel in relation to the wind, many will be designed with what are known as balanced rudders, ie a small section of the rudder area forward of the rudder post which takes most if not all water pressure out of the equasion, a practice never done on sailing vessels as this can kill any feel in a helm completely but can make lighter steering in a motorship which in the early days before servo assisted steering could also allow a smaller wheel to be used.

As to angle of the rudder, not really in issue except in regards to drag affecting speed, the greater the angle the greater the drag. As to angle of heel vs rudder, the further from vertical the rudder post is the less turning effect the rudder has on the vessel, put simply steering is being lost and the vessel will round up into the wind uncontrolably. This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms, each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to vertical than the other.

Knowing visually how central or 'midships' the wheel is doesn't really matter and how many full turns it takes to move the rudder only dictates sensitivity, Formula One cars = a fraction of a turn of the wheel and whoosh, it's off the track vs my old Landrover with it's huge wheel = half a turn and it gradually heads for the kerb!
The feel will tell you if things are out of kilter, too much weather helm, ie too much effort to hold her on a straight course will mean basically she's out of balance and the sails need adjusting, once you've taken the helm and settled into her you'll quickly learn how many spokes are needed to keep her on course, having a mark on the central spoke to feel in the dark or see in daylight is a simple aid to knowing how many spokes are needed for any one course but again not desperately needed.

In theory on a well balanced vessel yes, if you were to let go of the wheel the rudder should return to midships and if exceptionally well balanced will sail herself with no one touching the wheel or tiller but the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop. Steering means giving her a spoke or two, watch the compass begin it's swing back on course and before she does return the wheel to 'neutral' position and wait for the ship to swing back on course, as the desired course approaches on the compass give her those spokes again to slow her swing, watch for the compass to stop and hopefully settle on the exact course but more likely swing a degree or two past it so re-apply however many spokes are needed to bring her back and so it goes. Basically you're only actually steering her in one direction, she will
bring herself back the other way. You need to do it!

Angle of deck before taking water? Too many variables for any hard and fast rules, rule of thumb, maybe 30deg and upwards? Common angles of heel? Anything from horizontal to vertical! (almost joking!) vertical would be a broach or being knocked down, not nice.

Yes hull shape plays it's part but also the angle of the mast will mean the sails are not working efficiently. if at all and steering compromised.

The skipper of Osprey passed comment on the owners reproductive ability, intelligence and parentage in that order and in words of two syllables each………(FSB)

Yes, you've got it spot on with regards spiralling the yards.

Clean wet decks are slippy! Deck shoes make a huge difference but greasy dirty decks are more slippy when wet. They used sand as well as a stone, an early form of sandpapering!
Running is just plain dangerous especially on a heaving deck, imagine running and suddenly going weightless, heaven knows where you'd land! The effect increasing at the ends of the ship. Great fun though!

Coming about is changing course by turning the ship's bows through the eye of the wind, ie the direction the wind is coming from.
Getting caught in irons is when attempting to go about and the vessel stalls and stops dead in the water pointing straight into the wind and wont turn either way as there's no water passing over the rudder to give steerage. The solution can be to back a headsail or two by pulling it's sheet taught in the hope the wind will get on the wrong side of it and push the head of the ship across, at the same time turn the rudder in the opposite direction to help the stern swing and get the wind in a position where the rest of the sails can fill and begin to get her underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the predicament.
I have done almost this on the Soren when filming was done in Falmouth we were heading up Channel home to Brightlingsea in Essex and too close in to Portland Bill, the wind suddenly backed and pushed us into Lyme Bay. We had to quickly fire up the engine and motor out of the situation but in the days of sail wiith no motors it would have been a different problem indeed! Sailing pilots (books) all said to give Portland a very wide berth with winds ahead of the beam.

Leanora's swinging boom? I don't know the episode but booms do swing for all sorts of reasons either with or without sail set.
If sailing downwind or in very light or flukey winds in a lumpy sea on a rolling ship a boom can suddenly swing or flail about, it is common practice, even on modern yachts, to rig a preventer, a simple length of rope, to hold the boom one side or the other to help control it.

Cor blimey missus, I should write a book and tell you to buy a copy!!

Hope that answers all so far? Ask more anytime..

Richard.

— On Tue, 14/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 3:19

On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:
> Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?

Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
lot easier, what you've provided is useful.

> Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
> part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
> to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
> centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
> or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
> direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
> I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
> answer one direct question at a time.

No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.

> Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
> of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
> butter melts then head West',

this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics

> wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
> vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
> the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
> at the most two spokes from midships,

That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.

I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?

> as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
> difficult she is to handle.

Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
when boat is heeling?
I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
horizontal are common?

> rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
> in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
> heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,

What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
the rail?

> the motion
> threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
> deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
> go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !

Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink

> 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
> Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
> very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
> direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
> below that and so on, so

The bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
highest sail luffing.

> preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
> 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
> Helm Down'

that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
the highest small sail is filled again

> Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
> hence the name,

see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
floats
Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?

What is going on when I hear:
"I don't want her in irons"
"prepare to come about"
Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
to leeward

Lee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

Whoa. Sounds like there was also a "soap opera" going on behind the scenes. Thanks for the insight. You're the only other person involved with the Series that I've ever corresponded with. The other was Michael Billington. He was a great guy and seemed to love answering e-mails from fans. We e-mailed back and forth (about TOL and 'UFO') from about 2000 until his untimely passing in about 2005.

Anyway, about TOL… I wasn't thinking there should have been a Series 9; I just thought Series 8 needed that 10th episode to wrap up some loose ends. They certainly left the triangle between Samuel, Charlotte, and Samuel's new obnoxious American wife Caroline unresolved. (By the way, I'm also American, but not the obnoxious kind: no "Waldorf Salad" here!) Samuel seemed to be growing weary of Caroline's "holier than thou" personality and ambitions, and realizing that he really did have feelings for Charlotte, and the two of them seemed to be growing closer while Samuel and Caroline were growing apart.

And maybe it's just me being a sucker for happy endings (because reality sucks and doesn't always have happy endings), but I just couldn't see any reason why they made Elizabeth a widow again, having Daniel Fogarty die in a wreck at sea. If I correctly remember the message she received, it was said after the collision and sinking, they didn't think there were any survivors. That was left hanging as well as the Sam-Charlotte-Caroline triangle. And an Episode 10 could have resolved both of those. Daniel could have been found alive and adrift and brought home; Samuel could have divorced the obnoxious Caroline and remarried Charlotte; and we could have at least gotten a glimpse of James' son. (Happy endings for all: that would have been a good way to go out.)

Just me.

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: William Murphy <lobsanghoskins@yahoo.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 8:21 am
Subject: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls

Why no Episode 10?

I worked (Music Adviser) on the last series of the show and can offer some insights into this. The fact is that there was only just a Series 8. BBC Drama (Series and Serials) were very reluctant to commission the last series; they thought that the show had run its course. One problem was that the producer, Geraint Morris, was already thinking about his next commissioned show (King's Royal), and was also working on a new series that was going to showcase Jessica Bentham – The Heywood Files. The Heywood Files went all the way through the commissioning process (I was listed to write the music) before being shot down at the very last moment. At best, Geraint was phoning it in on The Onedin Line's last series, and frequently said so.

Series 8 was not a happy show. Geraint Morris and veteran director Gerry Blake had a simmering feud at best, fueled largely by Geraint's shameless nepotism and Welsh-centricity; by Series 8, the language of the control gallery was most emphatically Welsh, with the producer, half the directors, half the DA's (one was Geraint's nephew) and the Production Manager leaping into Celtic-language titters at every opportunity, to the snarling fury of all around them (and I write as a Gaelic speaker). Meanwhile, the script editor (Mervyn Haisman) was driving the show further and further into soap opera, to the horror of the standing cast. Merv the Scribe (as we called him, more or less affectionately) actually drafted an Episode 10 for Series 8, but it had so many insane plot twists and character implausibilities that it was put down long before it could be produced.

At the end of the very last dub of the very last show, just after Peter had intoned "I've got a son," Gerry Blake turned to me and the Sound Manager and said "Thank God that's over. If we tried to make another series of this thing, someone would get hurt." We then all went and got very, very drunk.

Bill Scanlan Murphy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

Wow! Loads more questions. I'll tackle a few so the burden doesn't fall all on R. (I'll snip some bits below and leave the bits I'll try to answer.)

Actually, in those days, some sailors didn't trust the captain – the superstition that the captain sailing them straight away from land, with no sign of land ahead after more than a month (sometimes even less) believed their captain was insane and would sail them of the edge of the world. Even Columbus had to deal with grumblings of that sort as he sailed for what he hoped (and thought) was India. His crew was on the verge of mutiny when they sighted land, now known as the Americas. Some crewmembers were loyal to the end, but not everyone was.

Markings on the wheel: There is what's called "the master spoke". This is the spoke on the wheel that is at the top of the wheel when the rudder is amidships, and that spoke is usually marked with what's called a Turk's Head Knot. (Just Google Turk's Head; it will be easier that way.) Some helms had a rudder angle indicator on them, but thus was very rare. Usually it was one of the qualifications of a helmsman to know where the rudder was by how many turns of the wheel were made. And as a side note, most of the major steering is done by trimming and moving the sails. The rudder is more of a "fine tuner" for the course, and is very useful in turning the ship enough to "spill the wind from the sails" as the ship makes large turns, thus making it easier for the crew to handle the sails. (Try to do something with a large picnic blanket when the wind is blowing hard into it; it's not easy, until you turn so the blanket doesn't catch the wind. So, too, with sails.)
Each ship is different, and each has a different steering mechanism. The Cutty Sark, for example, has (let me see if I can explain this) a huge opposing screw attached to the wheel such that when the wheel is turned, each end of the screw moves a rod towards the center of the screw, and the rods in turn move an arm that's attached to the rudder post, which moves the rudder in one direction. Turning the wheel the other way does the same thing in reverse. This whole mechanism is covered by a Steering Box. (See these photos of a sailing ship with its steering box cover, both in place, and removed and sitting off to the right with a large "1886" on it; its steering mechanism is very similar to that of Cutty Sark's and should make it easier to visualize what I tried with difficulty to explain above. Also note that the master spoke is marked on the wheel's upright spoke by a pin on the outer edge that's different than the other pins, though rather than having a Turk's Head on it, it's a differently-carved pin – best visible in the 3rd photo, as is the lashing on the wheel's bottom spoke to keep wayward hands from turning it:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca1400/ca1493/photos/033466pv.jpg
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca1400/ca1493/photos/033470pv.jpg
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca1400/ca1493/photos/033469pv.jpg
In this final photo you can see the tiller under the steering mechanism; the tiller would be used if the mechanism suffered catastrophic failure. Then block and tackle would be brought out and made fast to the aft end of the tiller to it could be pulled to one side or the other, and the forward end – where the rudder post is just abaft the wheel – would be locked in place so the tiller could move the rudder.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca1400/ca1493/photos/033468pv.jpg)
In this case, the wheel wouldn't kick back on you too badly; the rudder would have to fight the huge screw first. Some ships, such as Cutty Sark's rival, Thermopylae, had a vertical steering post, meaning the wheel was attached to the rudder post via gears interlocking at about 90 degrees: the vertical gear attached to the wheel, the horizontal gear to the rudder post. This sort of steering mechanism is a more "direct connect" between the wheel and rudder, and therefor gives the rudder more "kicking power" against the wheel – like not having power steering.

With the steering, again each ship is going to be different when it comes to how many turns will move the rudder how far, and the size of the wheel will determine how many spokes it has. (The nominal number is 6 or 8 spokes.) On the buoy tender I was stationed on in the Coast Guard in the early 1980s we had a 3-foot diameter, 8-spoke wheel: all brass tubing with no pins on the outer edge, but a Turk's Head on the master spoke. One full 360-degree turn of the wheel gave you 6 degrees of rudder.
On most ships, 30 degrees is considered full rudder (35 is hard or emergency rudder, and yes, you can turn a rudder so far that it will jam, although most steering mechanisms have "stops" in them to prevent this). The number of turns from amidships to left/right full rudder will depend on the ship and her steering mechanism. As I mentioned each one is different. And the steering mechanism would determine how the wheel (and rudder) react if you just let go. A hydraulic mechanism wouldn't notice if you let go or not. A mechanism like the Cutty Sark's might start working its way back slowly, while a direct link like Thermopylae's would spin that wheel right around with the rudder as the water's resistance against it pushed it to amidships.
The rate at which the rudder answers the wheel will depend on the type of mechanism: a mechanism such as Cutty Sark's or Thermopylae's will have the rudder answer as soon as you start turning the wheel. If a ship has hydraulic steering machinery – as my buoy tender did – it will take several seconds for the rudder to answer the wheel. One quick turn of the wheel took one second, and the rudder took two seconds to answer, and the more you have to turn the wheel the longer the delay will be. (Of course if you turn the wheel slowly the rudder will move just as slowly.)
Even though I was an Electronics Tech (ET) I was still a qualified underway Quartermaster of the Watch (or QMOW), and to get that qual I had to learn the ship's helm. I got so good at it that I could keep track in my head where the rudder was by how many turns of the wheel I'd given her, and with rapid rudder commands such as from right full to left full ("Shift your rudder!") I could spin that wheel ten times, count in my head how many seconds went by, and then call out when the rudder was "Passing amidships!", and when the "Rudder is at Left 30 Degrees!" and BINGO! There she was. It got so that when we were in Refresher Training (war games with the Navy), when they killed the helmsman, the ship-riders who graded the drills would not let me take the helm because even though they put black covers over the wheel angle indicator, which was atop the helm and showed how far the wheel was turned, and the rudder angle indicator, which followed a servo attached to the rudderpost and let you know where the rudder was, I still knew it all because I could keep track of where my wheel was, and how long it took my rudder to answer a command such as above. (So I was no fun for the ship-riders; I knew too much!) So a helmsman aboard a sailing ship would not be at the wheel unattended (manning the wheel without someone breaking him in) if he didn't know his helm as well as that.

Heeling: That's how far a ship "leans" to one side; it's not a term used to describe the cross-section of the hull or its shape. The more she heels, the more of her hull comes into contact with the water, ergo the more resistance she has and the less efficient her speed-making is. Also, the more she heels, the less effective her rudder will be because the rudder is no longer "pushing" the water to one side or the other, but mostly "up" or "down" depending on which side she heels to and what direction the rudder is placed. (That one's kind of hard to show, but use a piece of paper, hold it upright (no heeling) and turn it left and right as if it was a rudder. Then angle the paper to one side and do the same thing, turning the paper in-line with itself; you'll see the paper is now acting more like a diving plane than a rudder.)
And as for "common" angles of heeling, once again each ship is going to be different and the sea and wind conditions will play a part in that as well. How hard is the wind abeam and how hard is it blowing? How many sails does she have set that are catching that wind? How well is she ballasted or how heavy is she with cargo? How top-heavy is she? (Most of our Coast Guard Cutters these days are quite top-heavy, and it doesn't take much to have them heeling.) Lots of factors to take into account, so there really is no "common" angle for heeling.

Heeling and taking water over the rail: Again that will depend on the design of the ship. How much freeboard (the amount of her sides above the waterline to the rail) does she have? Also, how loaded with cargo is she? (The more she's loaded, the more she'll settle and the less freeboard she'll have – hence the need for the Plimsoll Mark to prevent overloading.) It also depends on the seas; calmer seas will have water breaking over the rails far less often than choppy seas, as in one case she'll just glide over the water, and in the other she'll be pitching or rolling (or both, which gives her a sort of "cork screw" motion – a motion I never got used to!). And just because she might be heeling enough to take water over her rails doesn't mean she'll sink. Ships are built with things like that in mind. As she rolls, the water will find its way across the deck into the waterways, and then through the scuppers, and back into the sea.

Okay… my brain hurts right now, and my pain meds are taking their toll on me. I'm going to roll into bed now and turn the other items over to R. (And of course he can feel free to add to anything I've said because I'm sure I haven't covered EVERYTHING in my comments.)

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 13, 2013 10:22 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL

> Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
> of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
> butter melts then head West',

this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics

> wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
> vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
> the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
> at the most two spokes from midships,

That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.

I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?

> as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
> difficult she is to handle.

Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
when boat is heeling? I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
horizontal are common?

> rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
> in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
> heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,

What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
the rail?

> the motion
> threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
> deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
> go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !

Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink

Lee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[galacticprobe]

That's right! The conniving Max van der Rheede (van der Rayda). Thanks, Pat!

I was actually hoping they would catch that snake earlier in the episode so we could see him thrown in prison for everything, including the White Slave Trade – after Onedin and his clan rescued the girl van der Rheede sold to a slaver while trying to cover his tracks. We know van der Rheede went to prison, but the rest of that story was left open-ended so my imagination says they did rescue the girl (she'd written a letter to "Mrs." Onedin (thinking it was still Letty) spilling the beans on van der Rheede, so they'd have a return address to track her down).

Aside from that ambiguous ending, my only complaint about Series 8 is that it really needed that final, 10th episode to round things off. They could have finished the series so much better with just one more episode. (It was – and still is – so popular that I'm surprised they made only nine, and not ten as they had from Series 4 on.)

But maybe that's just me.

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: Pat Kitchener <patk100@gmx.co.uk>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 13, 2013 5:39 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls

It was the evil Max Van Drader that James was after

—– Original Message —–
From: LambuLambu@aol.com
Sent: 03/05/13 07:05 AM
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls

No problem, Lee. that's what we're here for – to help people understand all things nautical (and of course, primarily, 'The Onedin Line').

You're right; fore-and-aft sails did/still do also have reefing bands and points, and no one had to go aloft to do the reefing when it was done. Notice how the reef bands are on the lower end of the sail. To shorten a fore-and-aft sail you just lower the gaff (the small boom at the top of the sail) and tie the reef points off at the bottom. That's what makes vessels like schooners easier for fewer people to handle. Theoretically all you need is one or two people per mast, plus one at the helm, a mate, and a captain (and a cook if you really don't want to "round robin" the job). So a three-masted schooner can operate with a crew of as little as 12-14, and they can work all masts simultaneously if necessary. A full-rigged ship (such as the CUTTY SARK) would take a crew upwards of 55 or more, and they'd be working one mast at a time.

And if I remember the episode in question correctly, James was chasing another ship down, gaining, and sluicing his sails to outrun even faster it before it entered someone's territorial waters. (Which didn't stop James anyway as I think he had to send his small boat into those territorial waters to get the person he was after.)

Dino.

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[galacticprobe]

I'd say nit pick away. As one who used to be part of a living history group specializing in mid-1800s US Revenue Cutter Service (the precursor to the US Coast Guard, from which I retired in 2011 after 31 years), one of the things we tried to get right was nautical history.

Terminology was a big thing, as was rigging. Most people when talking about two-masted vessels never realized, until they spent some time at our displays, that there was a difference between a schooner, a ketch, and a yawl. Or that some people (usually the "old salts" that didn't like changes) would refer to a brigantine as a "schooner-brig" when they started using fore-and-aft sails on the aft mast of a brig to make it a brigantine. Or that a vessel with two masts could have either a fore and a main, or a main and a mizzen depending on its rig.

We would also get a repeated question asked; there were variations in the wording but the question was the same: "How come in the movie 'Titanic', when they came to the iceberg and the officer ordered 'Hard to starboard!' the guy at the wheel turned it to the left, which is supposed to be port?" That's when we explained it was something that dated back to when vessels were steered with a tiller instead of a wheel. To move the rudder to the left (port), you would have to push the tiller to the right (starboard). The command would have properly been "Starboard your helm" or "Helm to starboard", translating as 'push the tiller to the right so the rudder goes left'. Merchant and passenger vessels stuck to that terminology – even when using wheels – longer after the naval services adopted the "Left <specify amount> rudder" command to mean exactly that: turn the wheel to the left a certain amount to put your rudder just so far to the left.

As one who was on the bridge of our Cutters quite often, I've seen and heard why they used "Right" and "Left" when it comes to rudder commands; in the din of everything it's very easy to mishear things. If you miss part of the word because of the noise – even though commands are called out loudly (almost shouted) – the tail end of star"board" could be mistaken for "port", but "Right ten degrees rudder", or "Come Left ten degrees" – no mistaking left and right there. Even those two commands have different meanings, and not just in direction. The former means move the rudder so it's at a 10-degree angle to the keel; the latter means use enough rudder to change the vessel's course by 10 degrees. (And once you realize that at times it could be possible to mistake the tail end of star"board" for "port", just think of how confusing it was in the days leading up to the early-mid 1700s when they used the word "larboard" to mean port… 'Wait… did he say 'Helm to STARboard' or 'Helm to LARboard'?')

I've only scratched the surface here, and now you know why I could hold people at the Navigation Display for 30 minutes or longer. However, now I think it's time for me to stop chattering away!

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, May 11, 2013 4:35 am
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL

If you really want me to I shall watch them all again and take notes?

The difference between a sloop and a cutter is not due to the position of the mast but simply the number of sails set forward of the mast, sloops have only the one, cutters two or more.

I did say 'implied' discovering Longitude, some mention of Harrison whould have removed that implication.

I used Helm as an example, not because it was mentioned, which it wasn't. Helm is a noun, it's a physical part of a ship (generic) not an action and still is in 2013!

I sincerely hope I'm not bursting any bubbles but as I've already said TOL is primarily romantic fiction, yes it has a damned good go at being historically accurate but even it can be nit-picked on the historic front. Next time you watch it look for Talurit, or swaged wire splicing in the rigging, or my Clarkes 'Pasty' shoes in one episode before Ken the wardrobe man caught me not going barefoot! (imagine an angry John Inman from Are You Being Served!) Precise it is not but mostly due to bloopers.

Masefield's long trick is a reference to steering (with the helm!). Contrary to common belief steering is often more disliked than any other duty onboard primarily because it can be incredibly boring, alone, constantly watching a compass or physically exhausting fighting a kicking wheel and the hour 'trick' one does at the wheel can feel an eternity, woebetide any man late to take his turn at the wheel especially on a cold wet night!

No, don't worry about the use of the word ship, it has, in the fluidity of our differing languages, became a generic term and perfectly acceptible. However, a ship rigged vessel MUST have three square masts or more hence a brig being a brig.

Richard.

— On Sat, 11/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 3:55

Thanks for the corrections.

On 5/10/2013 2:04 PM, R wrote:
> I didn't keep notes when watching but off the top of my head, describing
> fore and aft rigged boats with only one mast as sloops but showing a
> picture of a cutter.

So, I guess the single fore and aft mast is too far astern in the first
picture TRT calls a "sloop"; the second picture called a sloop actually
is one?

> Implying an American discovered how to calculate Longitude, John
> Harrison would have something to say on that one!

TRT didn't say American Thomas Sumner discovered how to calculate
longitude, that was already being calculated with clocks & tables. TRT
didn't mention Harrison who invented (1759) a clock accurate enough. TRT
said Sumner discovered (1837) how to calculate longitude with the same
(?!) observation as using the sextant to measure latitude. I'm guessing
he still needed Harrison's clock, just not such complicated tables.

> There were many more small errors which sadly could misinform someone
> with little to no knowledge of the subject and eventually run the risk
> of being distorted into fact if left unchecked,

I encourage nit picking, I've always assumed OL is historically
precise*! I imagine TRT was created earlier, independently, but due to
my formative experiences seeing them together, I want TRT accurate too.
(*I think Garibaldi's route to Italy was a little different.)

> Take one term we all should know by now as it's in common parlace the
> world over, the relatively recent one of 'Helming'. I cringe every time

I think TRT did not say that? OED does have a listing for "helm" as a
verb, usages from 1603-1890.

> do we all know what he meant with 'when the long trick is over'?

Huh! I thought I knew, but I was thinking Masefield wrote "trek" until
you pointed it out, TRT does say "trick".

> If anyone really wanted to nit-pick, I mean REALLY split hairs, in the
> days of sail all vessels were known by their rigs so the term 'Ship'
> would only be used to describe a vessel with square sails on all masts
> therefore a Brig, Barque, Cutter, Schooner etc etc would never be
> referred to as ships because they weren't ship rigged.

I'm the one who made up the title "sails & ships", I guess "sails &
vessels" or "rigging" would be better. I think TRT was pretty careful
about not calling a schooner etc a "ship". But a brig has square sails
on all (2) masts, right? Sometimes TRT & dictionaries imply a "ship"
has 3 or more masts.

James S1N1 09:06 referring to the schooner Charlotte Rhodes: "Old Josh
Webster's ship…"

> I'll shut up now!

Please pipe up again when you see more errors!

Lee

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