[ivaradi]

this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics

A good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure onboard, his was and still is the final word, onboard. Sadly some actually come to believe it in other aspects of their lives!
I've sailed with men I trust with my life and others I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit against a strong wind, (watch the Spencer Tracy film 'Captains Couragous', technically very good too) that doesn't mean you neccessarily like the good ones though. One fella I sailed under was a total parentless so & so but his navigation and seamanship was second to none such as entering a particularly difficult harbour in Brittany in thick fog by dead reckoning alone, that is with no electronic navigational aids.
 
"That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."

 
Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of gearing to reduce the load on your arms, Soren Larsen used the gearbox from a lorry, sorry, 'truck' for our colonial cousins, earlier ships used custom made 'worm' gearing. All sailing vessels will have a tiller of some sorts whatever steering system is used and it's the tiller that is then moved by another means to allow one man to move the rudder however large, even ships in the time of Columbus used the Whipstaff', a simple and crude method of moving the tiller by pivoting a vertical lever up through a slot in the deck, the lower end attached to the end of the tiller and the upper end pushed to port or starboard to steer. All tillers should have an emergency method of steering should the steering gear fail and mostly that was blocks and tackles rigged either side of the tiller to each side of the vessel, this was how the wheel came into being, as steering evolved the ends of the
rope tackles could be taken to the bottom of the whipstaff then later in history the whipstaff done away with and to a drum turned by a wheel, many big steamers were still being steered this way centuries later with chains running through tubes along the decks.
 
The most important aspect to steering a sailing vessel is to retain some 'feel' in the helm and to be able to make the ship react immediately to any movement of the helm, a straightforward tiller is the best for this but when vessels get larger and the tiller longer with the increased size of the rudder so becomes too difficult to handle some form of gearing has to be introduced which is where one begins to lose feel if not done well or too much.
 
Motor vessels are a different kettle of fish, they are being steered to a course not the wind so do not need either an immediate response or the same degree of feel in relation to the wind, many will be designed with what are known as balanced rudders, ie a small section of the rudder area forward of the rudder post which takes most if not all water pressure out of the equasion, a practice never done on sailing vessels as this can kill any feel in a helm completely but can make lighter steering in a motorship which in the early days before servo assisted steering could also allow a smaller wheel to be used.  

As to angle of the rudder, not really in issue except in regards to drag affecting speed, the greater the angle the greater the drag. As to angle of heel vs rudder, the further from vertical the rudder post is the less turning effect the rudder has on the vessel, put simply steering is being lost and the vessel will round up into the wind uncontrolably. This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms, each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to vertical than the other.
 
Knowing visually how central or 'midships' the wheel is doesn't really matter and how many full turns it takes to move the rudder only dictates sensitivity, Formula One cars = a fraction of a turn of the wheel and whoosh, it's off the track vs my old Landrover with it's huge wheel = half a turn and it gradually heads for the kerb! 
The feel will tell you if things are out of kilter, too much weather helm, ie too much effort to hold her on a straight course will mean basically she's out of balance and the sails need adjusting, once you've taken the helm and settled into her you'll quickly learn how many spokes are needed to keep her on course, having a mark on the central spoke to feel in the dark or see in daylight is a simple aid to knowing how many spokes are needed for any one course but again not desperately needed.
 
In theory on a well balanced vessel yes, if you were to let go of the wheel the rudder should return to midships and if exceptionally well balanced will sail herself with no one touching the wheel or tiller but the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop. Steering means giving her a spoke or two, watch the compass begin it's swing back on course and before she does return the wheel to 'neutral' position and wait for the ship to swing back on course, as the desired course approaches on the compass give her those spokes again to slow her swing, watch for the compass to stop and hopefully settle on the exact course but more likely swing a degree or two past it so re-apply however many spokes are needed to bring her back and so it goes. Basically you're only actually steering her in one direction, she will
bring herself back the other way. You need to do it! 
 
Angle of deck before taking water? Too many variables for any hard and fast rules, rule of thumb, maybe 30deg and upwards? Common angles of heel? Anything from horizontal to vertical! (almost joking!) vertical would be a broach or being knocked down, not nice.
 
Yes hull shape plays it's part but also the angle of the mast will mean the sails are not working efficiently. if at all and steering compromised.
 
The skipper of Osprey passed comment on the owners reproductive ability, intelligence and parentage in that order and in words of two syllables each………(FSB)
 
Yes, you've got it spot on with regards spiralling the yards.
 
Clean wet decks are slippy! Deck shoes make a huge difference but greasy dirty decks are more slippy when wet. They used sand as well as a stone, an early form of sandpapering!
Running is just plain dangerous especially on a heaving deck, imagine running and suddenly going weightless, heaven knows where you'd land! The effect increasing at the ends of the ship. Great fun though!
 
Coming about is changing course by turning the ship's bows through the eye of the wind, ie the direction the wind is coming from.
Getting caught in irons is when attempting to go about and the vessel stalls and stops dead in the water pointing straight into the wind and wont turn either way as there's no water passing over the rudder to give steerage. The solution can be to back a headsail or two by pulling it's sheet taught in the hope the wind will get on the wrong side of it and push the head of the ship across, at the same time turn the rudder in the opposite direction to help the stern swing and get the wind in a position where the rest of the sails can fill and begin to get her underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the predicament.
I have done almost this on the Soren when filming was done in Falmouth we were heading up Channel home to Brightlingsea in Essex and too close in to Portland Bill, the wind suddenly backed and pushed us into Lyme Bay. We had to quickly fire up the engine and motor out of the situation but in the days of sail wiith no motors it would have been a different problem indeed! Sailing pilots (books) all said to give Portland a very wide berth with winds ahead of the beam.
 
Leanora's swinging boom? I don't know the episode but booms do swing for all sorts of reasons either with or without sail set.
If sailing downwind or in very light or flukey winds in a lumpy sea on a rolling ship a boom can suddenly swing or flail about, it is common practice, even on modern yachts, to rig a preventer, a simple length of rope, to hold the boom one side or the other to help control it.
 
Cor blimey missus, I should write a book and tell you to buy a copy!!
 
Hope that answers all so far? Ask more anytime..
 
Richard. 
 

— On Tue, 14/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 3:19

 

On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:
> Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?

Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
lot easier, what you've provided is useful.

> Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
> part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
> to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
> centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
> or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
> direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
> I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
> answer one direct question at a time.

No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.

> Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
> of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
> butter melts then head West',

this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics

> wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
> vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
> the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
> at the most two spokes from midships,

That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.

I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?
 
> as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
> difficult she is to handle.

Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
when boat is heeling?
I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
horizontal are common?

> rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
> in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
> heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,

What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
the rail?

> the motion
> threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
> deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
> go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !

Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink

> 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
> Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
> very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
> direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
> below that and so on, so

The bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
highest sail luffing.

> preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
> 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
> Helm Down'

that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
the highest small sail is filled again

> Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
> hence the name,

see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
floats
Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?

What is going on when I hear:
"I don't want her in irons"
"prepare to come about"
Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
to leeward

Lee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

The important thing to remember about both TRT & TOL is that neither are gospel, nor for that matter is anything I might say. Nothing is set in stone and there were differences from ship to ship, owner to owner and country to country but some things you see and hear are just plain wrong in any language.
 
Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh? Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails, I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to answer one direct question at a time.
 
Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the butter melts then head West', then with regular astronomical calculation, both of stars (Pole star being incredibly simple) and sun, stay on that Lat and guesstimate Long from ships speed but huge margins for error. You are correct, with the advent of accurate timepieces a noon sighting anywhere around the globe could be accurately timed in relation to the time at Greenwich and by knowing from a book of tables what time noon was at Greenwich it became a simple thing to calculate Long. Having accurate time also meant sightings could be taken at any time of the day and then related to noon. 
 
The greater part of what I've seen so far in TRT is correct so don't dismiss it as a source of information, I only wanted to point out the occasional error or cultural differences. Even US presidents have been rubbish at world geography and history so don't expect better from film makers! Having lived in the States and sailed with many 'Wild Geese' I have discovered a similar blinkered view of the rest of the world which is hardly surprising when you watch their TV news, centric? I'll say it is! On one memorable occasion in Pennsylvania a seemingly intelligent young man on hearing I was from England said "That's in Russia isn't it, so you're a Communist then?"……………!
 
Steering can be a wonderful experience, it's where man and ship communicate, you feel her, she responds to your hand, with all sails tuned and a steady wind she can even sometimes steer herself for long periods. The first time I took the helm on Sea Cloud I was very pleasantly surprised. All  four masts fully clad with sails, a brisk Mediterranean breeze and as she picked up her skirts, heeling to the wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or at the most two spokes from midships, that's 316ft of four mast barque, incredible! But as Mr.Masefield points out, it can be a drudge and all you want is to get below and into your bunk.
 
As to what to do, well, hopefully someone with intelligence has calculated a safe course to steer, hopefully the wind is in the right direction and strength to allow the sails to use that wind to best advantage, the strength of the wind will dictate how much sail is to be set as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more difficult she is to handle. The man at the wheel is given a course to steer by the officer of the watch and he must do all he can to keep her on that course as accurately as he can. If there is a change of course to reach ones destination or the wind changes strength or direction then the sails will need adjustment accordingly. On my first Atlantic crossing on the Barquentine Osprey in 1976 the American owner with very little sailing experience was officer of the watch with three crew, the rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail, the motion threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !
The first I knew of it was a very insistent shout from the skipper of "All hands on deck!" waking me from my dreams, we didn't even have time to dress, 8 lads in underwear and bare feet 100ft up in the dark with rain squalls trying to reduce sail! Several years later she went down with the loss of all but one hand in a typhoon the S.China Sea.
All vessels need to be tuned at all times for safety and efficiency so you see both helmsman and officer of the watch are responsible for the safety of the ship and those asleep below and no amount of book reading can give you that knowledge.
 
A finer detail of how a helmsman steers a square rigger is to note, if ever you get the chance, that the yards on each mast are sometimes set with a bit of a spiral when looking up from the deck, we called it 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one below that and so on, so should the wind change direction suddenly or a sloppy helmsman let the vessel round up into the wind too much he will get some warning by hopefully hearing the sound of  the smallest sail flapping but more preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the Helm Down' to stop the larger lower sails 'Getting Caught Aback'. The helmsman's job is to keep the sails full. The officer of
the watch would then inform the captain and he might possibly order hands to braces to swing all of the yards around to allow the ship to be brought back on course with the new wind direction.
 
Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible, hence the name, is primarily simply to keep the decks clean, a ship gets very dirty in port, shore side feet tramping all over her, dust and dirt off the quayside, dirty cargoes being un/loaded, in hot sun the pitch might melt from between the planking and make a right mess, if they'd had Karcher high pressure patio scrubbers I'm sure they would have used those! Like houses with wooden decking it's all about pride and keeping everything looking good. On board a ship you also needed to keep the crew on watch busy and some captains would 'haze' or invent jobs for that purpose, holy stoning was sometimes one of them.
 
As for splinters, not really, a tree can be cut up into sections at the sawmill in a variety of ways and certain cuts are specific to the job, planking is cut one way from a tree so that it will bend more easily, decking another way so that it wont bend and by coincidence the top face of that cut means the grain will be running in a certain direction which greatly lessens the chance of splinters. Teak was the best material for decks and is a short grained wood anyway, if you can look at the leg of a teak coffee/dining table and note the pattern on two different faces you might get some idea.
Douglas Fir or similar would be the 'economy' deck, the sort James would specify to the shipwright and in those days Douglas could be had in very long straight grained lengths, ideal for the job and when 'Quarter Sawn', an uneconomical cut due to excessive waste, could also produce good clear decking material with little chance of splinters. In many respects holy stoning would mean a less slippery deck as any grease or other slippery substances would get removed giving better traction.
 
So endeth today's sermon, amen!
 
R. 

— On Sat, 11/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 20:34

 

On 5/11/2013 4:34 AM, R wrote:
> If you really want me to I shall watch them all again and take notes?

Really? I guess I'm the only one here who connects TRT with TOL so I
understand if detail about TRT is off topic. On the other hand, your
personal participation in TOL is an ON topic flag I bet. I guess I
won't impose as much as asking you to make that effort, but really, I
would appreciate seeing your notes on TRT! I'm interested in how
sails/wind/rudder/freeboard/mast location interact, and if I got the
wrong idea from TRT (or even TOL) I'd like to know better. This is a
great opportunity to get education from experts without having to search
for it!

It takes longer to upload these TRT episodes than I expected, I have 3
more ready but no schedule to get to the neighbor's uplink. #9 is
audible but video is so shaky I may try to extract it again. Every pass
of an old VHS cassette over the VCR heads threatens to clog the heads,
so I can't guarantee getting #10-15. When I add anything to the
collection (#1-5 so far) at
http://sdrv.ms/12cgzcR
I'll announce it here.

> I did say 'implied' discovering Longitude, some mention of Harrison
> whould have removed that implication.

I agree. Probably US-centrism was the reason for mentioning Sumner
instead. The TRT claim that prior to Sumner longitude was measured by
"time zone difference" sounds stupid, there were no time "zones" at sea,
right? Knowing the time in Greenwich when the local time is measureable
by solar noon or some other celestial orientation is vital. Harrison
discovered the mechanical technique that made clocks accurate enough to
measure longitude by precise time difference.

> Masefield's long trick is a reference to steering (with the helm!).
> Contrary to common belief steering is often more disliked than any other
> duty onboard primarily because it can be incredibly boring,
> alone, constantly watching a compass or physically exhausting fighting a
> kicking wheel and the hour 'trick' one does at the wheel can feel an
> eternity, woebetide any man late to take his turn at the wheel
> especially on a cold wet night!

That is a surprise, I thought it would be easy duty. It's not clear to
me how helmsman or officer decides what he can do with the wheel is not
adequate and sails or course must be adjusted.

What is the purpose of holystoning the deck? Is holystone pumice? Seems
like wet polishing would eliminate splinters for barefoot sailors, but
also eliminate all traction when wet ?!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

Yes thankfully some crew members are still around! And a good few of us still involved with traditional sail and in contact with each other. Sadly not all of the ships have made it though.
When I was sailing on Sea Cloud in the Med we played a film about ships and the sea to the mainly American passengers each week, an American production and so extremely romantic and inaccurate it was embarrassing! I can't remember what it was called but the final scene was of a man at a wheel with the setting sun behind him and the gentle creak of rigging with the most awful voiceover, 'Sea Fever' spoken very slowly with a Southern drawl……. Jed Clampett and Deputy Dawg couldn't have done it better!
 
But even our so called home grown 'experts' aren't all they should be. Such as one fellow the BBC employed to be their expert commentator on all things nautical for the Queen's Diamond Jubilee River Thames pageant didn't know his proverbial arse (ass) from his elbow on far too many topics, much to his very public embarrassment.
 
Richard. 

— On Sat, 11/5/13, Chris J Brady <chrisjbrady@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Chris J Brady <chrisjbrady@yahoo.com>
Subject: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 10:18

 

Remember that The Onedin Line was written and filmed in England and used genuine tall ships along with their crews. The ships are still around as are most of the crew members. The BBC at the time produced (and maybe still does) historically accurate and high budget drama programmes including similar series such as Poldark.
The Running Tide filmlets were produced by a t.v. company to 'waste' time. They appear to be badly researched, low-budget, and are US-centric (unsurprisingly). Sadly the History / Discovery Channel(s) a few years ago also produced a series of programmes on sailing ships that were equally as badly researched. I would opine that t.v. companies haven't got a clue about things maritime.
CJB.
— On Sat, 11/5/13, R <advcour@btinternet.com> wrote:

From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 9:34

 

If you really want me to I shall watch them all again and take notes?

 

The difference between a sloop and a cutter is not due to the position of the mast but simply the number of sails set forward of the mast, sloops have only the one, cutters two or more.

 

I did say 'implied' discovering Longitude, some mention of Harrison whould have removed that implication.

 

I used Helm as an example, not because it was mentioned, which it wasn't. Helm is a noun, it's a physical part of a ship (generic) not an action and still is in 2013!

 

I sincerely hope I'm not bursting any bubbles but as I've already said TOL is primarily romantic fiction, yes it has a damned good go at being historically accurate but even it can be nit-picked on the historic front. Next time you watch it look for Talurit, or swaged wire splicing in the rigging, or my Clarkes 'Pasty' shoes in one episode before Ken the wardrobe man caught me not going barefoot! (imagine an angry John Inman from Are You Being Served!) Precise it is not but mostly due to bloopers.

Masefield's long trick is a reference to steering (with the helm!). Contrary to common belief steering is often more disliked than any other duty onboard primarily because it can be incredibly boring, alone, constantly watching a compass or physically exhausting fighting a kicking wheel and the hour 'trick' one does at the wheel can feel an eternity, woebetide any man late to take his turn at the wheel especially on a cold wet night!

 

No, don't worry about the use of the word ship, it has, in the fluidity of our differing languages, became a generic term and perfectly acceptible. However, a ship rigged vessel MUST have three square masts or more hence a brig being a brig.

 

Richard. 

 

 

— On Sat, 11/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>

Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL

To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com

Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 3:55

 

Thanks for the corrections.

On 5/10/2013 2:04 PM, R wrote:

> I didn't keep notes when watching but off the top of my head, describing

> fore and aft rigged boats with only one mast as sloops but showing a

> picture of a cutter.

So, I guess the single fore and aft mast is too far astern in the first

picture TRT calls a "sloop"; the second picture called a sloop actually

is one?

> Implying an American discovered how to calculate Longitude, John

> Harrison would have something to say on that one!

TRT didn't say American Thomas Sumner discovered how to calculate

longitude, that was already being calculated with clocks & tables. TRT

didn't mention Harrison who invented (1759) a clock accurate enough. TRT

said Sumner discovered (1837) how to calculate longitude with the same

(?!) observation as using the sextant to measure latitude. I'm guessing

he still needed Harrison's clock, just not such complicated tables.

> There were many more small errors which sadly could misinform someone

> with little to no knowledge of the subject and eventually run the risk

> of being distorted into fact if left unchecked,

I encourage nit picking, I've always assumed OL is historically

precise*! I imagine TRT was created earlier, independently, but due to

my formative experiences seeing them together, I want TRT accurate too.

(*I think Garibaldi's route to Italy was a little different.)

> Take one term we all should know by now as it's in common parlace the

> world over, the relatively recent one of 'Helming'. I cringe every time

I think TRT did not say that? OED does have a listing for "helm" as a

verb, usages from 1603-1890.

> do we all know what he meant with 'when the long trick is over'?

Huh! I thought I knew, but I was thinking Masefield wrote "trek" until

you pointed it out, TRT does say "trick".

> If anyone really wanted to nit-pick, I mean REALLY split hairs, in the

> days of sail all vessels were known by their rigs so the term 'Ship'

> would only be used to describe a vessel with square sails on all masts

> therefore a Brig, Barque, Cutter, Schooner etc etc would never be

> referred to as ships because they weren't ship rigged.

I'm the one who made up the title "sails & ships", I guess "sails &

vessels" or "rigging" would be better. I think TRT was pretty careful

about not calling a schooner etc a "ship". But a brig has square sails

on all (2) masts, right? Sometimes TRT & dictionaries imply a "ship"

has 3 or more masts.

James S1N1 09:06 referring to the schooner Charlotte Rhodes: "Old Josh

Webster's ship…"

> I'll shut up now!

Please pipe up again when you see more errors!

Lee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

If you really want me to I shall watch them all again and take notes?
 
The difference between a sloop and a cutter is not due to the position of the mast but simply the number of sails set forward of the mast, sloops have only the one, cutters two or more.
 
I did say 'implied' discovering Longitude, some mention of Harrison whould have removed that implication.
 
I used Helm as an example, not because it was mentioned, which it wasn't. Helm is a noun, it's a physical part of a ship (generic) not an action and still is in 2013!
 
I sincerely hope I'm not bursting any bubbles but as I've already said TOL is primarily romantic fiction, yes it has a damned good go at being historically accurate but even it can be nit-picked on the historic front. Next time you watch it look for Talurit, or swaged wire splicing in the rigging, or my Clarkes 'Pasty' shoes in one episode before Ken the wardrobe man caught me not going barefoot! (imagine an angry John Inman from Are You Being Served!) Precise it is not but mostly due to bloopers.

Masefield's long trick is a reference to steering (with the helm!). Contrary to common belief steering is often more disliked than any other duty onboard primarily because it can be incredibly boring, alone, constantly watching a compass or physically exhausting fighting a kicking wheel and the hour 'trick' one does at the wheel can feel an eternity, woebetide any man late to take his turn at the wheel especially on a cold wet night!
 
No, don't worry about the use of the word ship, it has, in the fluidity of our differing languages, became a generic term and perfectly acceptible. However, a ship rigged vessel MUST have three square masts or more hence a brig being a brig.
 
Richard. 
 
 

— On Sat, 11/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 3:55

 

Thanks for the corrections.

On 5/10/2013 2:04 PM, R wrote:
> I didn't keep notes when watching but off the top of my head, describing
> fore and aft rigged boats with only one mast as sloops but showing a
> picture of a cutter.

So, I guess the single fore and aft mast is too far astern in the first
picture TRT calls a "sloop"; the second picture called a sloop actually
is one?

> Implying an American discovered how to calculate Longitude, John
> Harrison would have something to say on that one!

TRT didn't say American Thomas Sumner discovered how to calculate
longitude, that was already being calculated with clocks & tables. TRT
didn't mention Harrison who invented (1759) a clock accurate enough. TRT
said Sumner discovered (1837) how to calculate longitude with the same
(?!) observation as using the sextant to measure latitude. I'm guessing
he still needed Harrison's clock, just not such complicated tables.

> There were many more small errors which sadly could misinform someone
> with little to no knowledge of the subject and eventually run the risk
> of being distorted into fact if left unchecked,

I encourage nit picking, I've always assumed OL is historically
precise*! I imagine TRT was created earlier, independently, but due to
my formative experiences seeing them together, I want TRT accurate too.
(*I think Garibaldi's route to Italy was a little different.)

> Take one term we all should know by now as it's in common parlace the
> world over, the relatively recent one of 'Helming'. I cringe every time

I think TRT did not say that? OED does have a listing for "helm" as a
verb, usages from 1603-1890.

> do we all know what he meant with 'when the long trick is over'?

Huh! I thought I knew, but I was thinking Masefield wrote "trek" until
you pointed it out, TRT does say "trick".

> If anyone really wanted to nit-pick, I mean REALLY split hairs, in the
> days of sail all vessels were known by their rigs so the term 'Ship'
> would only be used to describe a vessel with square sails on all masts
> therefore a Brig, Barque, Cutter, Schooner etc etc would never be
> referred to as ships because they weren't ship rigged.

I'm the one who made up the title "sails & ships", I guess "sails &
vessels" or "rigging" would be better. I think TRT was pretty careful
about not calling a schooner etc a "ship". But a brig has square sails
on all (2) masts, right? Sometimes TRT & dictionaries imply a "ship"
has 3 or more masts.

James S1N1 09:06 referring to the schooner Charlotte Rhodes: "Old Josh
Webster's ship…"

> I'll shut up now!

Please pipe up again when you see more errors!

Lee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

I didn't keep notes when watching but off the top of my head, describing fore and aft rigged boats with only one mast as sloops but showing a picture of a cutter.
Implying an American discovered how to calculate Longitude, John Harrison would have something to say on that one!
There were many more small errors which sadly could misinform someone with little to no knowledge of the subject and eventually run the risk of being distorted into fact if left unchecked, but language is a fluid thing and it's just the way of the world and as Churchill once said about Britain and America, 'Two nations divided by a common language' never moreso when talking boat.
Take one term we all should know by now as it's in common parlace the world over, the relatively recent one of 'Helming'. I cringe every time I hear it being used, you would never say you were 'Wheeling' your car would you? You'd say you're steering your car with the wheel,  well that's exactly what you are saying when you use the word Helming, a vessel is steered by or with it's helm.
 
I'm not being pedantic but if left to run it's course the language of the sea will get lost in the mists of time. Like Masefield's poem Sea Fever, he actually sailed before the mast so his terminology is spot on, do we all know what he meant with 'when the long trick is over'?
 
The compass cover is called a binnacle and does indeed have a light inside it and a window in it to look through at the course, (not the bearing, a bearing is when you look at an object away from the ship and take a bearing of it and a binacle would stop you doing that), candles, oil lamps and electric all have been and still are in use.
 
If anyone really wanted to nit-pick, I mean REALLY split hairs, in the days of sail all vessels were known by their rigs so the term 'Ship' would only be used to describe a vessel with square sails on all masts therefore a Brig, Barque, Cutter, Schooner etc etc would never be referred to as ships because they weren't ship rigged.
 
I'll shut up now!
 
R.  

— On Fri, 10/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 10 May, 2013, 17:49

 

Running Tide was produced in New Orleans. Some of the later titles are
more obviously US-based, like the "women" episode is largely about
female steamboat captains on the Mississippi. I guess it was only
broadcast in the US, PBS needed to fill up the hour when they broadcast
series 1 & 2 of OL. Years later when Arts & Entertainment cable showed
series 5+ they inserted commercial breaks so they didn't need filler.

What's inaccurate?

And what's that cover they remove to look at the compass? I'm guessing
there's an oil lamp and lens in there so the helmsman can see the
bearing at night?

Lee

On 5/10/2013 12:07 PM, R wrote:
> Judging by the inaccuracies, bias and different cultural/technical
> terminology I'd hazzard a guess only in the USA?
>
> Richard.
>
> — On Fri, 10/5/13, Chris J Brady <chrisjbrady@yahoo.com
> <mailto:chrisjbrady%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> From: Chris J Brady <chrisjbrady@yahoo.com <mailto:chrisjbrady%40yahoo.com>>
> Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler
> after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
> To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:shiponedingroup%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Friday, 10 May, 2013, 16:39
>
>
>
> Brilliant. Thank you. Were these broadcast in the UK or only in the US
> or maybe Australia? Chris B.
>
> — On Fri, 10/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com
> <mailto:lee78%40localnet.com>> wrote:
>
>> From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com <mailto:lee78%40localnet.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
>> To:shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com <mailto:shiponedingroup%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Friday, 10 May, 2013, 0:05
>> whoops I meant #5 crimping
>> On 5/9/2013 7:04 PM, Lee Bonnifield wrote:
>> > Thanks Elaine! There are 2 more up now, #3 superstition
>> & #4 crimping.
>> >
>> > I've put 5 of The Running Tides up on my public
>> skydrive, more to follow.
>> >
>> >http://sdrv.ms/12cgzcR
>> >
>> > These are about 10 minutes each, 640×480 .wmv files
>> 40-55 megabytes
>> >
>> > Lee
>> >
>> > On 5/8/2013 8:15 AM, Elaine de Saxe wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 08 May 2013 04:17:20 -0000, leebonnifield
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I've put 3 of The Running Tides up on my public
>> skydrive, more to follow.
>> >> Seriously excellent! The sound is quite clear and
>> it's the commentary
>> >> which has the information.
>> >>
>> >> Thank you for what you have done so far. I'm keen
>> to see the rest of
>> >> them when you are able to get them up, Lee.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> Elaine in Brisbane, Australia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

Judging by the inaccuracies, bias and different cultural/technical terminology I'd hazzard a guess only in the USA?
 
Richard.

— On Fri, 10/5/13, Chris J Brady <chrisjbrady@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Chris J Brady <chrisjbrady@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 10 May, 2013, 16:39

 

Brilliant. Thank you. Were these broadcast in the UK or only in the US or maybe Australia? Chris B.

— On Fri, 10/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

> From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
> Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
> To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, 10 May, 2013, 0:05
> whoops I meant  #5 crimping
> On 5/9/2013 7:04 PM, Lee Bonnifield wrote:
> > Thanks Elaine! There are 2 more up now, #3 superstition
> & #4 crimping.
> >
> > I've put 5 of The Running Tides up on my public
> skydrive, more to follow.
> >
> > http://sdrv.ms/12cgzcR
> >
> > These are about 10 minutes each, 640×480 .wmv files
> 40-55 megabytes
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > On 5/8/2013 8:15 AM, Elaine de Saxe wrote:
> >> On Wed, 08 May 2013 04:17:20 -0000, leebonnifield
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've put 3 of The Running Tides up on my public
> skydrive, more to follow.
> >> Seriously excellent! The sound is quite clear and
> it's the commentary
> >> which has the information.
> >>
> >> Thank you for what you have done so far. I'm keen
> to see the rest of
> >> them when you are able to get them up, Lee.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Elaine in Brisbane, Australia
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> ————————————
>
> Website about the Onedin Line http://www.sound-research.co.uk/onedin_line.htm Yahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>     shiponedingroup-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

Hey Dino, that's okay, I wouldn't know how to switch on half of all that electronic stuff you know about let alone use it, I still use a sextant and a leadline primed with tallow! It's each to their own and mine is them thar old ways, ha-harr Jim Lad.
I bet you miss it all as much as I do but whatever ships we sailed in we're still sons of the sea.
Interesting to note you know the Eagle, I picked up the handbook they issue to all raw recruits, 'Eagle Seamanship', very useful point of reference for sailing a square rigger in modern times. I used to keep in touch with Ed Cassidy (but yes, his real name was always Captain or Sir!), he retired to Naples Fla. He was liked very much by most of the crew. I joined Sea Cloud in Livorno, Italy as Rigger but within two weeks one of the three mast captains, or watch leaders, left the ship and guess who he gave the post to! Bit of a shame really as it meant a lot more responsibility but it also meant I learned every aspect of handling a big ship, as well as the 8 men in my watch.
 
I too have experienced the styrofoam/jacuzzi scenario you talk about, I've been through some rough stuff, 11 touching 12, always open ocean and with masts and sails to steady her but I've never been so frightened as when delivering a new 40ft line handling tug in the Med. Spain to Libya. A constant force 8 for three days and nights had built up a very nasty sea, very short and steep, that's the trouble with enclosed waters, I believe the Great Lakes suffer the same? and tugs are designed for harbour use! We arrived in Grand Harbour, Valletta and I thanked every deity on Earth and vowed never to go to sea again! But, you know all too well if there's salt in your veins you can't ever give it up completely, with or without illness to cope with, I'm currently laid up shoreside recovering from broken ribs and a punctured lung after falling from a ladder getting my canoe off the garage roof! All those times aloft without a scratch and I fall off a
ladder!!
I believe you regarding enjoying the skiff restoration, I am a boatbuilder too, City & Guilds bronze medalist 1979 from Falmouth college in Cornwall (it was whilst there I blagged my way on to the Onedin Line), currently building a 33ft steel Tahitiana, a version of John Hanna's Tahiti Ketch although mine is gaff cutter rigged, in the workshop a 14ft stich and glue plywood open canoe taking shape and on a trailer at the front of the house picked up for a song a very pretty vintage American designed glassfibre bilge keeler, a Signet20, designed in the early 60's by Ray Kaufman. I sometimes wonder if I will ever get afloat again!
 
Regards,
Richard.  
 

— On Fri, 3/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 3 May, 2013, 6:49

 

Richard,

Let me start off by saying that I'm the first one to say "I stand corrected" when I make a mistake, so worry not about "falling out" by e-mail. (As I mentioned, it has been some years since I was active in my living history group, so some of my info has gotten a little cloudy.) Once you started in about where the reefing points were tied off to and which side of a sail was goosewinged, I pulled a Homer Simpson… "DOH!"… and promptly had the heel of my hand make contact with my forehead. To be fair, I talked mainly at the Navigation Display – qualified underway Quartermaster of the Watch, which as an Electronics Tech was an accomplishment – helped me out there. I also did the Small Arms display (OJT for that one), and I developed a Ship's Carpenter display, again learning it all OJT while restoring an old wooden skiff for one of our local historic houses: accumulated a lot of period tools to work with, too. That was fun! (Seriously, it was.)

I rarely stood by at the Rigs and Rigging Display (which also dealt with sail-handling), but back then I knew that stuff. But as they say, 'if you don't use it, you lose it'. So I haven't "completely" lost the bit on sail-handling, but I have gotten cloudy and I do thank you for clearing up my misinformation, and for refreshing my memory. The other three Displays I worked I did so much they're ingrained in me and I doubt I'll forget those. 😉

Coast Guard Cutters – at least the ones from the mid 1980s on – are top-heavy, and to coin a phrase, "roll like pigs". More aptly, they ride like a Styrofoam cup in a jacuzzi! They have "stabilizer fins" at the bilge keel to counteract the rolling, but all they do is turn what would be a smooth rolling into a 'whipping' action, so the ride is even worse. I was on the CGC Harriet Lane during The Perfect Storm and we got the crap knocked out of us. Then in August 2004 when I was on CGC Legare, just back in the Atlantic from coming through the Panama Canal, with the seas at an 8-foot chop we rolled so badly that it threw my back out and I ended up having lower back surgery which haunted me from then on, leading to a series of ER visits, a second surgery in mid 2010 after my back slipped out again, this time causing sciatic nerve damage, which finally forced my retirement in Feb 2011 (and a third surgery about a year later, and things are still not right).

Now my buoy tender (vintage 1940s) that I was on in the early 1980s didn't have those fins, and she rode so much better even though she rolled quite a bit (round, pig belly hull with an ice-breaking bow). Aboard her we found and placed a wreck buoy at the MARINE ELECTRIC when she went down in a storm. It would be more correct to say the M E found us. It was the middle of the night and we could see the shape of a broken hull on the depth sounder chart recorder, and on a final pass to make sure, the M E's mooring line drifted up and caught us by our screw. Brought us to a screeching halt and held us there until we could get divers to cut the line from our screw later that day. (The divers also confirmed the wreck was the MARINE ELECTRIC, and not another ship.) Now that was creepy: looking off our stern and seeing a heavy line disappearing into the water knowing that 120 feet down at the other end was a 600-or-so-foot cargo ship that had sunk only a day or
so before taking 31 of her 34-man crew with her.

I never got to sail aboard EAGLE, though before my tour on LEGARE I was Fleet Support for the AN/SPS-73 Radar and spent many hours (and days) aboard EAGLE repairing her radar. (During OpSail 2000 in Norfolk, VA, my wedding ring ended up inside EAGLE's radar somehow, and they still haven't found it!) I spent all of OpSail aboard her trying to get that radar working. Again just before I went to LEGARE I was aboard EAGLE in New London, CT for a week in May 2003 giving her radar a full going over because she was on her way to the Med for several months. That was way after CAPT Cassidy was the CO, though (1972-1973). The COs when I worked on her radar were CAPT Ivan Luke (OpSail), and CAPT Eric Shaw, who had just taken command from Luke in 2003, though as an enlisted guy like I was, their first names were always "Captain"! And that CO info comes from the CG Historian's web site: http://www.uscg.mil/history/webcutters/eagle_1946.asp

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 2, 2013 2:35 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls

Reefing a square sail was back in the days when topsails and topgallants were single sails and very large, it wasn't an efficient way to reduce sail requiring reefing tackles and lots of men going aloft to tie the reef points. Common sense and practicality eventually prevailed and both sails were divided into uppers and lowers particularly on really tall ships with double t'gallants, mostly it was the topsails that got divided, the whole upper yard being able to slide up and down it's section of mast (see Sorlandet photo and the crew having finised the upper topsail and climbing straight down to help on the lower topsail), most of the work being done from the deck and a much quicker way of reducing sail.

Goosewinging was I'm afraid to say, done the other way around. When running down wind or more likely with the wind on the quarter it was the windward side of the sail that was left full to catch the brunt of the wind and the leeward side simply clewed up because it was in the lee and flogging, it was not a practice done in particularly heavy weather, more the direction of wind. Modern yachts do it for the same reasons when sailing downwind, the mainsail goes one side and the headsail the other so as not to flog. There are old photos of square sails in a goose wing condition with the windward side clewed up and men on the yard reducing sail but that was an attempt at 'killing' the sail to allow them to furl it. I've been in that situation and can tell you the ballooned out winward end of the sail is like concrete and you can do nothing with it.
Please forgive me for taking you to task again, I'm not trying to be argumentative and it's all too easy to fall out by email but reef points were never tied around spars, they still aren't, the grommets and usually triangular patches they are sewn into simply aren't man enough to take the strain of heavy weather, the whole reason for reducing sail.
In the case of reef points on square sails the sail was bunted up to the yard and the points were taken either side of the reduced canvas and around the boltrope along the top edge of the sail, not the yard, the reefing tackles would then pull the new head as taught as possible, the individual reef points then share the load with the boltrope.
Reefing square sails died out long before James' day!

I don't think I would have liked going aloft on your Coast Guard cutter either, motor vessels have a much sharper roll, at least tallships rolled long but slow! Did you ever serve under Capt.Cassidy on the US barque 'Eagle' by any chance? He was my captain onboard the four mast barque 'Sea Cloud' in the Med.

Richard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

Reefing a square sail was back in the days when topsails and topgallants were single sails and very large, it wasn't an efficient way to reduce sail requiring reefing tackles and lots of men going aloft to tie the reef points. Common sense and practicality eventually prevailed and both sails were divided into uppers and lowers particularly on really tall ships with double t'gallants, mostly it was the topsails that got divided, the whole upper yard being able to slide up and down it's section of mast (see Sorlandet photo and the crew having finised the upper topsail and climbing straight down to help on the lower topsail), most of the work being done from the deck and a much quicker way of reducing sail.
 
Goosewinging was I'm afraid to say, done the other way around. When running down wind or more likely with the wind on the quarter it was the windward side of the sail that was left full to catch the brunt of the wind and the leeward side simply clewed up because it was in the lee and flogging, it was not a practice done in particularly heavy weather, more the direction of wind. Modern yachts do it for the same reasons when sailing downwind, the mainsail goes one side and the headsail the other so as not to flog. There are old photos of square sails in a goose wing condition with the windward side clewed up and men on the yard reducing sail but that was an attempt at 'killing' the sail to allow them to furl it. I've been in that situation and can tell you the ballooned out winward end of the sail is like concrete and you can do nothing with it.
Please forgive me for taking you to task again, I'm not trying to be argumentative and it's all too easy to fall out by email but reef points were never tied around spars, they still aren't, the grommets and usually triangular patches they are sewn into simply aren't man enough to take the strain of heavy weather, the whole reason for reducing sail.
In the case of reef points on square sails the sail was bunted up to the yard and the points were taken either side of the reduced canvas and around the boltrope along the top edge of the sail, not the yard, the reefing tackles would then pull the new head as taught as possible, the individual reef points then share the load with the boltrope.
Reefing square sails died out long before James' day!   
 
I don't think I would have liked going aloft on your Coast Guard cutter either, motor vessels have a much sharper roll, at least tallships rolled long but slow! Did you ever serve under Capt.Cassidy on the US barque 'Eagle' by any chance? He was my captain onboard the four mast barque 'Sea Cloud' in the Med.
 
Richard
 

— On Thu, 2/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 2 May, 2013, 16:14

 

"R" sent a very detailed reply on what going aloft is like. I'm just glad I never had to do that in my Coast Guard career, other than to work on a wonky radar pedestal, and even that was a bit of a trial when the Cutter was rolling (and as I got older I found that I could no longer handle heights!). But there was one thing in R's reply I didn't see: Reefing sail.

Have you ever noticed those horizontal bands on a square sail, and how those bands have "strings" dangling from then every few feet across? Those bands are Reefing bands. (Excuse my terminology if I get something a little off; it's been ages since I've talked about this in my living history group.) And those "strings" are Reefing Points: pieces of line (rope) that run through grommets in the sail so the line dangles on the fore and aft sides of the sail.

Those are used to reef, or "shorten sail" so the ship can keep some sail rather than furling the whole sail and leaving the yard "bare". You heave in the sail just as R described until you reach one of the reefing bands. (Some large sails such as the topgallant can have upwards of three reefing bands. The captain will determine just how much sail he wants to leave out, and that determines which reefing band you'll use.)

Once you have the reefing band at hand, those reefing points I mentioned are used to tie the sail around the yard; the line is tied off with a square or "reef" knot (not a "granny" knot, which looks similar, but will slip loose). That's how you reef and tie off a sail. The captain would order sails reefed if the weather was turning harsh and carrying full sail would result in either a broken mast, snapped rigging, or worse. If things got really bad then all sails would be furled and the ship would continue under "bare poles"; the wind would be strong enough that the rigging would catch enough of it to push the ship along. (But we're talking winds near hurricane force now.)

The captain could also order a sail – usually one of the forward, lower sails such as a lower topsail – to be "goose-winged". This is when the weather side of the sail (the side taking the brunt of the wind) would be completely furled, and the lee side (the part of the sail on the other side of the ship, where the mast and rigging would block some of the force) would be reefed; you had a triangular portion of a square sail exposed, so you weren't under bare poles. It offered a little more speed and that gave you a little more rudder control.

As for sluicing sails… I believe that's when buckets of water (and this would be sea water) are hauled up the mast and poured on the sails to wet them down. As most people are aware, a wet cloth will catch and hold the wind better than a dry one, and the same holds true for sails. During the War of 1812, in one engagement, the USS CONSTITUTION used this method to catch a little more wind and outrun a heavier armed British warship. (I believe Onedin used this trick in an episode or two to overtake another ship.)

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 1, 2013 10:56 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls

I'm not clear on what you do up there — raise the
bottom edge of square sails (reef)? tie it (with what?) to yard
(dictionary says sailor rolls it up hence he's called "reefer".) Untie
it? And why sluice sails S?N? ?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

I've put them in the photo section.
R.

— On Thu, 2/5/13, R <advcour@btinternet.com> wrote:

From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 2 May, 2013, 13:53

 

Oh, I sent two photos with that lot but they don't appear to be with the text……….
 
R.

— On Thu, 2/5/13, R <advcour@btinternet.com> wrote:

From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 2 May, 2013, 13:49

 

Some men were forced to go to sea but you could never run a ship purely with pressed men, the majority wanted to go to sea, yes it was a hard life and still can be if you get a grumpy owner/skipper, but it could represent a far better life than the one they had ashore.

 
Yes you're up a hundred feet or more standing on a rope, a wire rope (served with Marline impregnated with Stockholm Tar which gives fantastic grip and smells even better) that sometimes goes over 45deg as she rolls but you hang on, sailors tend to have fantastic grip!
A well found rig will have set dimensions, ie the distance the footrope hangs below the yard is a known distance on all ships which allows you to brace your knees between yard and footrope and at a height for the average man to have his belly over the yard so he can use both hands to get the sail in.
The sail is first hauled up to the yard from the deck (the arm is only the very tip of the yard usually painted white) with the Clewlines and the Bunt lines, like a Venitian blind, the crew then go aloft and pleat the sail onto the top of the yard by tucking each pleat under their bellies, the last pleat is the head of the sail which is tied to an iron rod along the top of the yard called the Headstay, you form a pocket the full length of the yard and together push the pleated sail off the top of the yard into the pocket where you punch and punch it into as small a 'sausage' as it will go.
Now comes the hardest (next to getting the wind out of a sail to be able to start pleating) and most dangerous bit,
You have the whole sail in what is hoped a long smooth and tight roll on the front face of the yard and need to get it onto the top, Everyone puts both hands over the front of the sail and together at the same moment roll the sail up ontop of the yard, this means you are leaning backwards with the footrope having swung forwards under the yard and both hands on top of a smooth roll of sail, modern square riggers have a backrope the full length onto which you clip your harness just incase, older ships had Beckets, a rope loop on the Headstay which a sailor could hook an arm through. A very well found ship might even have another iron rod along the top of the yard (see Discovery photo) purely there as a handrail for the sailors, known as the Jackstay.
The sail is then secured to the top of the yard with short lengths of rope known as Gaskets, each individual Gasket is permanently fixed and coiled a special way so that they remain coiled in any weather, if you ever see a closeup of a square sail full of wind from the front you will see the gaskets hanging along the top of the sail close to the yard. .
 
What I have described here is called a harbour stow, starting at the highest sail and working down as you can see on Sorlandet, harder work but done to show the ship off in port 'Bristol fashion' as well as protecting the sail from rain and sun when not in use. Canvas sails would often have a sacrificial head tabling for this purpose as well as for chafe against the yard. In the case of shortening sail at sea the Bunted up sail might just be rolled up onto the yard 'in the bunt' and the gaskets quickly tied around it for the duration of the blow. I had to go aloft with one other fellow in a force 11 mid Atlantic to re tie the Main Royal, the very topmost sail, whose gaskets had come undone and the sail was flogging 'in the bunt' fit to shake the top section of mast out of her. We weren't under sail but riding it out with the wheel lashed and all crew below so the ship was rolling very badly, rail under to rail under, at 110ft up that was a ride
and a half!
 
When setting sail only one or two 'boys' need go aloft to cast off the Gaskets and push the rolled up sail off the top of the yard to hang in it's gear, the rest is all done from the deck. When you see Errol Flynn or Jack Sparrow giving the order to make sail and the whole crew of burly men rush to the shrouds to go aloft…….. that's the romantic bit, and very incorrect!
 
I am not familliar with the term 'sluice' in reference to sails but it might mean to wash the salt out of them before stowing them below? I have my Dana to hand, page? As to what else one can 'do up there' once my work as a rigger was done I would sometimes find a corner to tuck myself away, don my shades, switch on the Walkman, open a book, slosh on the lotion and sunbathe, occasionally make a noise against some ironwork with a spanner or spike to fool the Bosun……..
 
What everyone needs to remember is that TOL is a romantic work of fiction and not to take all you see and hear as gospel.
 
Richard. 
— On Thu, 2/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 2 May, 2013, 3:15

 

On 5/1/2013 4:02 AM, R wrote:
> In my experience all the nice girls liked a sailor, not much sign of
> contempt there!

In 19th century, crimping! Legal slavery, if a man can be drugged or
knocked unconscious near the docks.

> Plus going aloft isn't all that dangerous,

but but but you're standing on a rope? with arms over a polished smooth
(maybe wet) yardarm? & both hands occupied in pulling up canvas? Sounds
like a balancing act to me even without wind and rain and pitching ship
movements, exaggerated at that height. And if you fall into the sea you
won't be visible by the time a fast ship starts back? James left newbie
Samuel clinging to the rigging in a storm just for seasoning S5N5 The
Stowaway.

We never see details of the action aloft. And I forgot after reading
Dana 30 years ago — I'm not clear on what you do up there — raise the
bottom edge of square sails (reef)? tie it (with what?) to yard
(dictionary says sailor rolls it up hence he's called "reefer".) Untie
it? And why sluice sails S?N? ?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

Oh, I sent two photos with that lot but they don't appear to be with the text……….
 
R.

— On Thu, 2/5/13, R <advcour@btinternet.com> wrote:

From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 2 May, 2013, 13:49

 

Some men were forced to go to sea but you could never run a ship purely with pressed men, the majority wanted to go to sea, yes it was a hard life and still can be if you get a grumpy owner/skipper, but it could represent a far better life than the one they had ashore.

 
Yes you're up a hundred feet or more standing on a rope, a wire rope (served with Marline impregnated with Stockholm Tar which gives fantastic grip and smells even better) that sometimes goes over 45deg as she rolls but you hang on, sailors tend to have fantastic grip!
A well found rig will have set dimensions, ie the distance the footrope hangs below the yard is a known distance on all ships which allows you to brace your knees between yard and footrope and at a height for the average man to have his belly over the yard so he can use both hands to get the sail in.
The sail is first hauled up to the yard from the deck (the arm is only the very tip of the yard usually painted white) with the Clewlines and the Bunt lines, like a Venitian blind, the crew then go aloft and pleat the sail onto the top of the yard by tucking each pleat under their bellies, the last pleat is the head of the sail which is tied to an iron rod along the top of the yard called the Headstay, you form a pocket the full length of the yard and together push the pleated sail off the top of the yard into the pocket where you punch and punch it into as small a 'sausage' as it will go.
Now comes the hardest (next to getting the wind out of a sail to be able to start pleating) and most dangerous bit,
You have the whole sail in what is hoped a long smooth and tight roll on the front face of the yard and need to get it onto the top, Everyone puts both hands over the front of the sail and together at the same moment roll the sail up ontop of the yard, this means you are leaning backwards with the footrope having swung forwards under the yard and both hands on top of a smooth roll of sail, modern square riggers have a backrope the full length onto which you clip your harness just incase, older ships had Beckets, a rope loop on the Headstay which a sailor could hook an arm through. A very well found ship might even have another iron rod along the top of the yard (see Discovery photo) purely there as a handrail for the sailors, known as the Jackstay.
The sail is then secured to the top of the yard with short lengths of rope known as Gaskets, each individual Gasket is permanently fixed and coiled a special way so that they remain coiled in any weather, if you ever see a closeup of a square sail full of wind from the front you will see the gaskets hanging along the top of the sail close to the yard. .
 
What I have described here is called a harbour stow, starting at the highest sail and working down as you can see on Sorlandet, harder work but done to show the ship off in port 'Bristol fashion' as well as protecting the sail from rain and sun when not in use. Canvas sails would often have a sacrificial head tabling for this purpose as well as for chafe against the yard. In the case of shortening sail at sea the Bunted up sail might just be rolled up onto the yard 'in the bunt' and the gaskets quickly tied around it for the duration of the blow. I had to go aloft with one other fellow in a force 11 mid Atlantic to re tie the Main Royal, the very topmost sail, whose gaskets had come undone and the sail was flogging 'in the bunt' fit to shake the top section of mast out of her. We weren't under sail but riding it out with the wheel lashed and all crew below so the ship was rolling very badly, rail under to rail under, at 110ft up that was a ride
and a half!
 
When setting sail only one or two 'boys' need go aloft to cast off the Gaskets and push the rolled up sail off the top of the yard to hang in it's gear, the rest is all done from the deck. When you see Errol Flynn or Jack Sparrow giving the order to make sail and the whole crew of burly men rush to the shrouds to go aloft…….. that's the romantic bit, and very incorrect!
 
I am not familliar with the term 'sluice' in reference to sails but it might mean to wash the salt out of them before stowing them below? I have my Dana to hand, page? As to what else one can 'do up there' once my work as a rigger was done I would sometimes find a corner to tuck myself away, don my shades, switch on the Walkman, open a book, slosh on the lotion and sunbathe, occasionally make a noise against some ironwork with a spanner or spike to fool the Bosun……..
 
What everyone needs to remember is that TOL is a romantic work of fiction and not to take all you see and hear as gospel.
 
Richard. 
— On Thu, 2/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 2 May, 2013, 3:15

 

On 5/1/2013 4:02 AM, R wrote:
> In my experience all the nice girls liked a sailor, not much sign of
> contempt there!

In 19th century, crimping! Legal slavery, if a man can be drugged or
knocked unconscious near the docks.

> Plus going aloft isn't all that dangerous,

but but but you're standing on a rope? with arms over a polished smooth
(maybe wet) yardarm? & both hands occupied in pulling up canvas? Sounds
like a balancing act to me even without wind and rain and pitching ship
movements, exaggerated at that height. And if you fall into the sea you
won't be visible by the time a fast ship starts back? James left newbie
Samuel clinging to the rigging in a storm just for seasoning S5N5 The
Stowaway.

We never see details of the action aloft. And I forgot after reading
Dana 30 years ago — I'm not clear on what you do up there — raise the
bottom edge of square sails (reef)? tie it (with what?) to yard
(dictionary says sailor rolls it up hence he's called "reefer".) Untie
it? And why sluice sails S?N? ?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

Some men were forced to go to sea but you could never run a ship purely with pressed men, the majority wanted to go to sea, yes it was a hard life and still can be if you get a grumpy owner/skipper, but it could represent a far better life than the one they had ashore.

 
Yes you're up a hundred feet or more standing on a rope, a wire rope (served with Marline impregnated with Stockholm Tar which gives fantastic grip and smells even better) that sometimes goes over 45deg as she rolls but you hang on, sailors tend to have fantastic grip!
A well found rig will have set dimensions, ie the distance the footrope hangs below the yard is a known distance on all ships which allows you to brace your knees between yard and footrope and at a height for the average man to have his belly over the yard so he can use both hands to get the sail in.
The sail is first hauled up to the yard from the deck (the arm is only the very tip of the yard usually painted white) with the Clewlines and the Bunt lines, like a Venitian blind, the crew then go aloft and pleat the sail onto the top of the yard by tucking each pleat under their bellies, the last pleat is the head of the sail which is tied to an iron rod along the top of the yard called the Headstay, you form a pocket the full length of the yard and together push the pleated sail off the top of the yard into the pocket where you punch and punch it into as small a 'sausage' as it will go.
Now comes the hardest (next to getting the wind out of a sail to be able to start pleating) and most dangerous bit,
You have the whole sail in what is hoped a long smooth and tight roll on the front face of the yard and need to get it onto the top, Everyone puts both hands over the front of the sail and together at the same moment roll the sail up ontop of the yard, this means you are leaning backwards with the footrope having swung forwards under the yard and both hands on top of a smooth roll of sail, modern square riggers have a backrope the full length onto which you clip your harness just incase, older ships had Beckets, a rope loop on the Headstay which a sailor could hook an arm through. A very well found ship might even have another iron rod along the top of the yard (see Discovery photo) purely there as a handrail for the sailors, known as the Jackstay.
The sail is then secured to the top of the yard with short lengths of rope known as Gaskets, each individual Gasket is permanently fixed and coiled a special way so that they remain coiled in any weather, if you ever see a closeup of a square sail full of wind from the front you will see the gaskets hanging along the top of the sail close to the yard. .
 
What I have described here is called a harbour stow, starting at the highest sail and working down as you can see on Sorlandet, harder work but done to show the ship off in port 'Bristol fashion' as well as protecting the sail from rain and sun when not in use. Canvas sails would often have a sacrificial head tabling for this purpose as well as for chafe against the yard. In the case of shortening sail at sea the Bunted up sail might just be rolled up onto the yard 'in the bunt' and the gaskets quickly tied around it for the duration of the blow. I had to go aloft with one other fellow in a force 11 mid Atlantic to re tie the Main Royal, the very topmost sail, whose gaskets had come undone and the sail was flogging 'in the bunt' fit to shake the top section of mast out of her. We weren't under sail but riding it out with the wheel lashed and all crew below so the ship was rolling very badly, rail under to rail under, at 110ft up that was a ride
and a half!
 
When setting sail only one or two 'boys' need go aloft to cast off the Gaskets and push the rolled up sail off the top of the yard to hang in it's gear, the rest is all done from the deck. When you see Errol Flynn or Jack Sparrow giving the order to make sail and the whole crew of burly men rush to the shrouds to go aloft…….. that's the romantic bit, and very incorrect!
 
I am not familliar with the term 'sluice' in reference to sails but it might mean to wash the salt out of them before stowing them below? I have my Dana to hand, page? As to what else one can 'do up there' once my work as a rigger was done I would sometimes find a corner to tuck myself away, don my shades, switch on the Walkman, open a book, slosh on the lotion and sunbathe, occasionally make a noise against some ironwork with a spanner or spike to fool the Bosun……..
 
What everyone needs to remember is that TOL is a romantic work of fiction and not to take all you see and hear as gospel.
 
Richard. 

— On Thu, 2/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 2 May, 2013, 3:15

 

On 5/1/2013 4:02 AM, R wrote:
> In my experience all the nice girls liked a sailor, not much sign of
> contempt there!

In 19th century, crimping! Legal slavery, if a man can be drugged or
knocked unconscious near the docks.

> Plus going aloft isn't all that dangerous,

but but but you're standing on a rope? with arms over a polished smooth
(maybe wet) yardarm? & both hands occupied in pulling up canvas? Sounds
like a balancing act to me even without wind and rain and pitching ship
movements, exaggerated at that height. And if you fall into the sea you
won't be visible by the time a fast ship starts back? James left newbie
Samuel clinging to the rigging in a storm just for seasoning S5N5 The
Stowaway.

We never see details of the action aloft. And I forgot after reading
Dana 30 years ago — I'm not clear on what you do up there — raise the
bottom edge of square sails (reef)? tie it (with what?) to yard
(dictionary says sailor rolls it up hence he's called "reefer".) Untie
it? And why sluice sails S?N? ?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

I didn't see it either

— On Wed, 1/5/13, vivdodd456@btinternet.com <vivdodd456@btinternet.com> wrote:

From: vivdodd456@btinternet.com <vivdodd456@btinternet.com>
Subject: [shiponedingroup] poll
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 1 May, 2013, 15:40

 

I missed the notice of a poll for favourite character aswell – how come?No wonder there was less than 50% turnout?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

In my experience all the nice girls liked a sailor, not much sign of contempt there! Plus going aloft isn't all that dangerous, in fact it is one of the few places onboard a sailor can get away from a bully of a mate or a grumpy skipper. I read Dana on my first Atlantic crossing 'before the mast'.
 
Richard.

— On Wed, 1/5/13, leebonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:

From: leebonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: [shiponedingroup] Re: Onedin Polls
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 1 May, 2013, 3:21

 

My favorite character?

Leonora Biddulph! I'd rather have her around than any of the others. Brave, determined, resourceful, aggressive, cares nothing for convention. James was foolish not to marry her for purely selfish reasons when she offered to take care of Charlotte. Given how hard she worked for him, think how much happier she would have been if she were getting what she wanted! I don't think she had unrealistic expectations about what a cold fish he is, but if she were disappointed and left, he'd be no worse off.

The ships! Taking advantage of free wind and currents to cross the ocean, if you know how to select the vectors and measure the stars to figure out where you are. I built a big model of the Cutty Sark, and read Richard Henry Dana's _Two Years Before the Mast_. It's hard to imagine the contempt in which sailors were held, maybe that was necessary to give them such dangerous work aloft. I still can't believe many captains would sail thousands of miles, around Cape Horn, with no prospect for a cargo except the word of a frightened pantryman (S2N4 Fetch and Carry).

Anne, I didn't think the series could continue without her.

James. And later, Elizabeth. Ayn Rand would love those two, I wonder if she ever commented.

— In shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diana" <moonroll@…> wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone who voted for their fav character.
>
> 11 people voted out of 35 members so a little disappointing that we
> didn't make 50% but there was certainly a lot of activity last week.
>
> The winner of favourite character, just pipping James, is ELIZABETH
>
>
> I will set up another poll later this week – assuming everyone wants
> to continue.
>
> Diana
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

Was it Winston Churchill who said something along the lines of 'Two nations divided by a common language'?
 
Charlotte Rhodes disappeared because she caught fire. Funnily enough catching fire also played a part in Soren Larsen appearing as she was bought as a burnt out insurance salvage write-off for very little money, the owners got her rigged and sailing, they then landed the BBC work which allowed them to refit her fully although we did buy two Portapotti loos for the ladies to use, they weren't too keen to use the ships 'Gludge', a portable shed with galvanized funnel leading overboard and a bucket with rope to provide the flush.

— On Tue, 23/4/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:

From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] I'm new here
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 April, 2013, 17:34

 

Wow! No PBS channel I could get aired 'The Onedin Line', much less 'The Running Tide' (which sounds like some episodes I'd love to get copies of!). I was able to see TOL (several series behind what was current) in 1979-1980 on Channel 9 (WOR it was then, not WWOR like now) in New York City. They stopped airing episodes after "A Proposal of Marriage" (Series 3, Episode 9), and I thought that was the end until I found this great Group, and a few other sites dedicated to the Series.

And in my quest for TOL knowledge I stumbled across a Tall ship forum (I don't think it exists anymore), but on there I found a pen pal who sailed aboard the Charlotte Rhodes in 1975-76 before she was sold (which is why she is only mentioned, but never seen in the Series again in anything other than stock footage of her underway). I also became pen pals with Michael Billington (about TOL as well as 'UFO') before he passed away. He was a great guy who seemed to love talking (e-mailing?) with fans of both shows.

So welcome aboard! Things are usually quiet here, but when discussions get going they're very interesting and quite a few members get involved. And I do have a question that no one has been able to answer yet: maybe I missed it when watching my way through the entire Series, but at some point in Series 7 or 8, it's mentioned that James Onedin has no steamships, yet I can't remember any mention in a previous series where there's mention of him permanently selling the Anne Onedin.

I know he lost her when Jack Frazer sold her and she was renamed Scotch Lass, but then James regained possession of her (in "A Proposal of Marriage" via salvage rights) and renamed her Anne Onedin again. Then he sold her for 5,000 pounds (I forget the episode's title), used that money to buy several small schooners, then turned around and sold the schooners during the coal miners' strike making 10 thousand pounds on the deal, and bought back the Anne Onedin for only 2,000 pounds.

That was the last I knew of James doing any selling of her, and he still had her at the end of Series 6. So, was there something I missed that left him without the Anne Onedin in Series 7 and 8?

Dino.

—–Original Message—–
From: leebonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Apr 23, 2013 4:56 am
Subject: [shiponedingroup] I'm new here

I'm glad to see other people are as impressed with The Onedin Line as I have been!

I've read all the messages and hope to reply to some. After seeing the enthusiasm and dedication of list members trying to get DVDs of the complete series I started skipping those messages about availability — I guess everybody has sources now. I just bought the 91 episode 32 DVD Region 1 set from sir_Arlen

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONEDIN-LINE-32-DVDs-Region-1-complete-8-series-/200908674584?pt=US_DVD_HD_DVD_Blu_ray&hash=item2ec7171618

I think that's a good value at $127 + $3 postage but ask about the clipped end credits.

I first saw OL about 1977 when PBS broadcast series 1 & 2 in the US. VCR's didn't exist then but I was such a video enthusiast I'd bought a reel-to-reel color video tape recorder, so I was able to record those episodes and I watched them so many times I practically had them memorized. PBS followed the 50 minute episodes with a 10 minute feature "The Running Tide", which was a short historical documentary about seafaring. The topic was often related to a theme of the OL episode.

When Anne died I thought that was a final end. PBS stopped broadcasting the series ~1978, I assumed that was the end of the series. When I bought a VCR in 1981 I copied my OL reel tapes to VHS and kept re-watching them. Years later in a library glancing at an Australian newspaper I was thrilled to notice the TV listings — they were getting series 5!

Then I think it was the Arts & Entertainment channel about 1990 where I got series 5-8 on VHS, missing only the first few episodes of series 7. Recently I tried copying my 30 year old VHS cassettes to DVD and realized how crummy my old VHS cassettes are. I still may try to recover "The Running Tide" (15 different topics), I thought they were very well done too,

I started shopping for DVDs and quickly found the set above. Now I've seen series 3-4 for the first time and watched the whole series twice! So I may remember answers to some questions and if I think of questions I bet somebody out there has recently watched the relevant episodes.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ivaradi]

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shiponedingroup
group.

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Uploaded by : robs77x <danglemoongroup@googlemail.com>
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