- This topic has 46 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 5 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Yes thankfully some crew members are still around! And a good few of us still involved with traditional sail and in contact with each other. Sadly not all of the ships have made it though.
When I was sailing on Sea Cloud in the Med we played a film about ships and the sea to the mainly American passengers each week, an American production and so extremely romantic and inaccurate it was embarrassing! I can't remember what it was called but the final scene was of a man at a wheel with the setting sun behind him and the gentle creak of rigging with the most awful voiceover, 'Sea Fever' spoken very slowly with a Southern drawl……. Jed Clampett and Deputy Dawg couldn't have done it better!
But even our so called home grown 'experts' aren't all they should be. Such as one fellow the BBC employed to be their expert commentator on all things nautical for the Queen's Diamond Jubilee River Thames pageant didn't know his proverbial arse (ass) from his elbow on far too many topics, much to his very public embarrassment.
Richard.— On Sat, 11/5/13, Chris J Brady <chrisjbrady@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Chris J Brady <chrisjbrady@yahoo.com>
Subject: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 10:18Remember that The Onedin Line was written and filmed in England and used genuine tall ships along with their crews. The ships are still around as are most of the crew members. The BBC at the time produced (and maybe still does) historically accurate and high budget drama programmes including similar series such as Poldark.
The Running Tide filmlets were produced by a t.v. company to 'waste' time. They appear to be badly researched, low-budget, and are US-centric (unsurprisingly). Sadly the History / Discovery Channel(s) a few years ago also produced a series of programmes on sailing ships that were equally as badly researched. I would opine that t.v. companies haven't got a clue about things maritime.
CJB.
— On Sat, 11/5/13, R <advcour@btinternet.com> wrote:From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 9:34If you really want me to I shall watch them all again and take notes?
The difference between a sloop and a cutter is not due to the position of the mast but simply the number of sails set forward of the mast, sloops have only the one, cutters two or more.
I did say 'implied' discovering Longitude, some mention of Harrison whould have removed that implication.
I used Helm as an example, not because it was mentioned, which it wasn't. Helm is a noun, it's a physical part of a ship (generic) not an action and still is in 2013!
I sincerely hope I'm not bursting any bubbles but as I've already said TOL is primarily romantic fiction, yes it has a damned good go at being historically accurate but even it can be nit-picked on the historic front. Next time you watch it look for Talurit, or swaged wire splicing in the rigging, or my Clarkes 'Pasty' shoes in one episode before Ken the wardrobe man caught me not going barefoot! (imagine an angry John Inman from Are You Being Served!) Precise it is not but mostly due to bloopers.
Masefield's long trick is a reference to steering (with the helm!). Contrary to common belief steering is often more disliked than any other duty onboard primarily because it can be incredibly boring, alone, constantly watching a compass or physically exhausting fighting a kicking wheel and the hour 'trick' one does at the wheel can feel an eternity, woebetide any man late to take his turn at the wheel especially on a cold wet night!
No, don't worry about the use of the word ship, it has, in the fluidity of our differing languages, became a generic term and perfectly acceptible. However, a ship rigged vessel MUST have three square masts or more hence a brig being a brig.
Richard.
— On Sat, 11/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 3:55
Thanks for the corrections.
On 5/10/2013 2:04 PM, R wrote:
> I didn't keep notes when watching but off the top of my head, describing
> fore and aft rigged boats with only one mast as sloops but showing a
> picture of a cutter.
So, I guess the single fore and aft mast is too far astern in the first
picture TRT calls a "sloop"; the second picture called a sloop actually
is one?
> Implying an American discovered how to calculate Longitude, John
> Harrison would have something to say on that one!
TRT didn't say American Thomas Sumner discovered how to calculate
longitude, that was already being calculated with clocks & tables. TRT
didn't mention Harrison who invented (1759) a clock accurate enough. TRT
said Sumner discovered (1837) how to calculate longitude with the same
(?!) observation as using the sextant to measure latitude. I'm guessing
he still needed Harrison's clock, just not such complicated tables.
> There were many more small errors which sadly could misinform someone
> with little to no knowledge of the subject and eventually run the risk
> of being distorted into fact if left unchecked,
I encourage nit picking, I've always assumed OL is historically
precise*! I imagine TRT was created earlier, independently, but due to
my formative experiences seeing them together, I want TRT accurate too.
(*I think Garibaldi's route to Italy was a little different.)
> Take one term we all should know by now as it's in common parlace the
> world over, the relatively recent one of 'Helming'. I cringe every time
I think TRT did not say that? OED does have a listing for "helm" as a
verb, usages from 1603-1890.
> do we all know what he meant with 'when the long trick is over'?
Huh! I thought I knew, but I was thinking Masefield wrote "trek" until
you pointed it out, TRT does say "trick".
> If anyone really wanted to nit-pick, I mean REALLY split hairs, in the
> days of sail all vessels were known by their rigs so the term 'Ship'
> would only be used to describe a vessel with square sails on all masts
> therefore a Brig, Barque, Cutter, Schooner etc etc would never be
> referred to as ships because they weren't ship rigged.
I'm the one who made up the title "sails & ships", I guess "sails &
vessels" or "rigging" would be better. I think TRT was pretty careful
about not calling a schooner etc a "ship". But a brig has square sails
on all (2) masts, right? Sometimes TRT & dictionaries imply a "ship"
has 3 or more masts.
James S1N1 09:06 referring to the schooner Charlotte Rhodes: "Old Josh
Webster's ship…"
> I'll shut up now!
Please pipe up again when you see more errors!
Lee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'd say nit pick away. As one who used to be part of a living history group specializing in mid-1800s US Revenue Cutter Service (the precursor to the US Coast Guard, from which I retired in 2011 after 31 years), one of the things we tried to get right was nautical history.Terminology was a big thing, as was rigging. Most people when talking about two-masted vessels never realized, until they spent some time at our displays, that there was a difference between a schooner, a ketch, and a yawl. Or that some people (usually the "old salts" that didn't like changes) would refer to a brigantine as a "schooner-brig" when they started using fore-and-aft sails on the aft mast of a brig to make it a brigantine. Or that a vessel with two masts could have either a fore and a main, or a main and a mizzen depending on its rig.
We would also get a repeated question asked; there were variations in the wording but the question was the same: "How come in the movie 'Titanic', when they came to the iceberg and the officer ordered 'Hard to starboard!' the guy at the wheel turned it to the left, which is supposed to be port?" That's when we explained it was something that dated back to when vessels were steered with a tiller instead of a wheel. To move the rudder to the left (port), you would have to push the tiller to the right (starboard). The command would have properly been "Starboard your helm" or "Helm to starboard", translating as 'push the tiller to the right so the rudder goes left'. Merchant and passenger vessels stuck to that terminology – even when using wheels – longer after the naval services adopted the "Left <specify amount> rudder" command to mean exactly that: turn the wheel to the left a certain amount to put your rudder just so far to the left.
As one who was on the bridge of our Cutters quite often, I've seen and heard why they used "Right" and "Left" when it comes to rudder commands; in the din of everything it's very easy to mishear things. If you miss part of the word because of the noise – even though commands are called out loudly (almost shouted) – the tail end of star"board" could be mistaken for "port", but "Right ten degrees rudder", or "Come Left ten degrees" – no mistaking left and right there. Even those two commands have different meanings, and not just in direction. The former means move the rudder so it's at a 10-degree angle to the keel; the latter means use enough rudder to change the vessel's course by 10 degrees. (And once you realize that at times it could be possible to mistake the tail end of star"board" for "port", just think of how confusing it was in the days leading up to the early-mid 1700s when they used the word "larboard" to mean port… 'Wait… did he say 'Helm to STARboard' or 'Helm to LARboard'?')
I've only scratched the surface here, and now you know why I could hold people at the Navigation Display for 30 minutes or longer. However, now I think it's time for me to stop chattering away!
Dino.
—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, May 11, 2013 4:35 am
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OLIf you really want me to I shall watch them all again and take notes?
The difference between a sloop and a cutter is not due to the position of the mast but simply the number of sails set forward of the mast, sloops have only the one, cutters two or more.
I did say 'implied' discovering Longitude, some mention of Harrison whould have removed that implication.
I used Helm as an example, not because it was mentioned, which it wasn't. Helm is a noun, it's a physical part of a ship (generic) not an action and still is in 2013!
I sincerely hope I'm not bursting any bubbles but as I've already said TOL is primarily romantic fiction, yes it has a damned good go at being historically accurate but even it can be nit-picked on the historic front. Next time you watch it look for Talurit, or swaged wire splicing in the rigging, or my Clarkes 'Pasty' shoes in one episode before Ken the wardrobe man caught me not going barefoot! (imagine an angry John Inman from Are You Being Served!) Precise it is not but mostly due to bloopers.
Masefield's long trick is a reference to steering (with the helm!). Contrary to common belief steering is often more disliked than any other duty onboard primarily because it can be incredibly boring, alone, constantly watching a compass or physically exhausting fighting a kicking wheel and the hour 'trick' one does at the wheel can feel an eternity, woebetide any man late to take his turn at the wheel especially on a cold wet night!
No, don't worry about the use of the word ship, it has, in the fluidity of our differing languages, became a generic term and perfectly acceptible. However, a ship rigged vessel MUST have three square masts or more hence a brig being a brig.
Richard.
— On Sat, 11/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 3:55Thanks for the corrections.
On 5/10/2013 2:04 PM, R wrote:
> I didn't keep notes when watching but off the top of my head, describing
> fore and aft rigged boats with only one mast as sloops but showing a
> picture of a cutter.So, I guess the single fore and aft mast is too far astern in the first
picture TRT calls a "sloop"; the second picture called a sloop actually
is one?> Implying an American discovered how to calculate Longitude, John
> Harrison would have something to say on that one!TRT didn't say American Thomas Sumner discovered how to calculate
longitude, that was already being calculated with clocks & tables. TRT
didn't mention Harrison who invented (1759) a clock accurate enough. TRT
said Sumner discovered (1837) how to calculate longitude with the same
(?!) observation as using the sextant to measure latitude. I'm guessing
he still needed Harrison's clock, just not such complicated tables.> There were many more small errors which sadly could misinform someone
> with little to no knowledge of the subject and eventually run the risk
> of being distorted into fact if left unchecked,I encourage nit picking, I've always assumed OL is historically
precise*! I imagine TRT was created earlier, independently, but due to
my formative experiences seeing them together, I want TRT accurate too.
(*I think Garibaldi's route to Italy was a little different.)> Take one term we all should know by now as it's in common parlace the
> world over, the relatively recent one of 'Helming'. I cringe every timeI think TRT did not say that? OED does have a listing for "helm" as a
verb, usages from 1603-1890.> do we all know what he meant with 'when the long trick is over'?
Huh! I thought I knew, but I was thinking Masefield wrote "trek" until
you pointed it out, TRT does say "trick".> If anyone really wanted to nit-pick, I mean REALLY split hairs, in the
> days of sail all vessels were known by their rigs so the term 'Ship'
> would only be used to describe a vessel with square sails on all masts
> therefore a Brig, Barque, Cutter, Schooner etc etc would never be
> referred to as ships because they weren't ship rigged.I'm the one who made up the title "sails & ships", I guess "sails &
vessels" or "rigging" would be better. I think TRT was pretty careful
about not calling a schooner etc a "ship". But a brig has square sails
on all (2) masts, right? Sometimes TRT & dictionaries imply a "ship"
has 3 or more masts.James S1N1 09:06 referring to the schooner Charlotte Rhodes: "Old Josh
Webster's ship…"> I'll shut up now!
Please pipe up again when you see more errors!
Lee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 5/11/2013 4:34 AM, R wrote:> If you really want me to I shall watch them all again and take notes?
Really? I guess I'm the only one here who connects TRT with TOL so I
understand if detail about TRT is off topic. On the other hand, your
personal participation in TOL is an ON topic flag I bet. I guess I
won't impose as much as asking you to make that effort, but really, I
would appreciate seeing your notes on TRT! I'm interested in how
sails/wind/rudder/freeboard/mast location interact, and if I got the
wrong idea from TRT (or even TOL) I'd like to know better. This is a
great opportunity to get education from experts without having to search
for it!It takes longer to upload these TRT episodes than I expected, I have 3
more ready but no schedule to get to the neighbor's uplink. #9 is
audible but video is so shaky I may try to extract it again. Every pass
of an old VHS cassette over the VCR heads threatens to clog the heads,
so I can't guarantee getting #10-15. When I add anything to the
collection (#1-5 so far) at
http://sdrv.ms/12cgzcR
I'll announce it here.> I did say 'implied' discovering Longitude, some mention of Harrison
> whould have removed that implication.I agree. Probably US-centrism was the reason for mentioning Sumner
instead. The TRT claim that prior to Sumner longitude was measured by
"time zone difference" sounds stupid, there were no time "zones" at sea,
right? Knowing the time in Greenwich when the local time is measureable
by solar noon or some other celestial orientation is vital. Harrison
discovered the mechanical technique that made clocks accurate enough to
measure longitude by precise time difference.> Masefield's long trick is a reference to steering (with the helm!).
> Contrary to common belief steering is often more disliked than any other
> duty onboard primarily because it can be incredibly boring,
> alone, constantly watching a compass or physically exhausting fighting a
> kicking wheel and the hour 'trick' one does at the wheel can feel an
> eternity, woebetide any man late to take his turn at the wheel
> especially on a cold wet night!That is a surprise, I thought it would be easy duty. It's not clear to
me how helmsman or officer decides what he can do with the wheel is not
adequate and sails or course must be adjusted.What is the purpose of holystoning the deck? Is holystone pumice? Seems
like wet polishing would eliminate splinters for barefoot sailors, but
also eliminate all traction when wet ?!The important thing to remember about both TRT & TOL is that neither are gospel, nor for that matter is anything I might say. Nothing is set in stone and there were differences from ship to ship, owner to owner and country to country but some things you see and hear are just plain wrong in any language.
Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh? Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails, I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to answer one direct question at a time.
Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the butter melts then head West', then with regular astronomical calculation, both of stars (Pole star being incredibly simple) and sun, stay on that Lat and guesstimate Long from ships speed but huge margins for error. You are correct, with the advent of accurate timepieces a noon sighting anywhere around the globe could be accurately timed in relation to the time at Greenwich and by knowing from a book of tables what time noon was at Greenwich it became a simple thing to calculate Long. Having accurate time also meant sightings could be taken at any time of the day and then related to noon.
The greater part of what I've seen so far in TRT is correct so don't dismiss it as a source of information, I only wanted to point out the occasional error or cultural differences. Even US presidents have been rubbish at world geography and history so don't expect better from film makers! Having lived in the States and sailed with many 'Wild Geese' I have discovered a similar blinkered view of the rest of the world which is hardly surprising when you watch their TV news, centric? I'll say it is! On one memorable occasion in Pennsylvania a seemingly intelligent young man on hearing I was from England said "That's in Russia isn't it, so you're a Communist then?"……………!
Steering can be a wonderful experience, it's where man and ship communicate, you feel her, she responds to your hand, with all sails tuned and a steady wind she can even sometimes steer herself for long periods. The first time I took the helm on Sea Cloud I was very pleasantly surprised. All four masts fully clad with sails, a brisk Mediterranean breeze and as she picked up her skirts, heeling to the wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or at the most two spokes from midships, that's 316ft of four mast barque, incredible! But as Mr.Masefield points out, it can be a drudge and all you want is to get below and into your bunk.
As to what to do, well, hopefully someone with intelligence has calculated a safe course to steer, hopefully the wind is in the right direction and strength to allow the sails to use that wind to best advantage, the strength of the wind will dictate how much sail is to be set as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more difficult she is to handle. The man at the wheel is given a course to steer by the officer of the watch and he must do all he can to keep her on that course as accurately as he can. If there is a change of course to reach ones destination or the wind changes strength or direction then the sails will need adjustment accordingly. On my first Atlantic crossing on the Barquentine Osprey in 1976 the American owner with very little sailing experience was officer of the watch with three crew, the rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail, the motion threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !
The first I knew of it was a very insistent shout from the skipper of "All hands on deck!" waking me from my dreams, we didn't even have time to dress, 8 lads in underwear and bare feet 100ft up in the dark with rain squalls trying to reduce sail! Several years later she went down with the loss of all but one hand in a typhoon the S.China Sea.
All vessels need to be tuned at all times for safety and efficiency so you see both helmsman and officer of the watch are responsible for the safety of the ship and those asleep below and no amount of book reading can give you that knowledge.
A finer detail of how a helmsman steers a square rigger is to note, if ever you get the chance, that the yards on each mast are sometimes set with a bit of a spiral when looking up from the deck, we called it 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one below that and so on, so should the wind change direction suddenly or a sloppy helmsman let the vessel round up into the wind too much he will get some warning by hopefully hearing the sound of the smallest sail flapping but more preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the Helm Down' to stop the larger lower sails 'Getting Caught Aback'. The helmsman's job is to keep the sails full. The officer of
the watch would then inform the captain and he might possibly order hands to braces to swing all of the yards around to allow the ship to be brought back on course with the new wind direction.
Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible, hence the name, is primarily simply to keep the decks clean, a ship gets very dirty in port, shore side feet tramping all over her, dust and dirt off the quayside, dirty cargoes being un/loaded, in hot sun the pitch might melt from between the planking and make a right mess, if they'd had Karcher high pressure patio scrubbers I'm sure they would have used those! Like houses with wooden decking it's all about pride and keeping everything looking good. On board a ship you also needed to keep the crew on watch busy and some captains would 'haze' or invent jobs for that purpose, holy stoning was sometimes one of them.
As for splinters, not really, a tree can be cut up into sections at the sawmill in a variety of ways and certain cuts are specific to the job, planking is cut one way from a tree so that it will bend more easily, decking another way so that it wont bend and by coincidence the top face of that cut means the grain will be running in a certain direction which greatly lessens the chance of splinters. Teak was the best material for decks and is a short grained wood anyway, if you can look at the leg of a teak coffee/dining table and note the pattern on two different faces you might get some idea.
Douglas Fir or similar would be the 'economy' deck, the sort James would specify to the shipwright and in those days Douglas could be had in very long straight grained lengths, ideal for the job and when 'Quarter Sawn', an uneconomical cut due to excessive waste, could also produce good clear decking material with little chance of splinters. In many respects holy stoning would mean a less slippery deck as any grease or other slippery substances would get removed giving better traction.
So endeth today's sermon, amen!
R.— On Sat, 11/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 May, 2013, 20:34On 5/11/2013 4:34 AM, R wrote:
> If you really want me to I shall watch them all again and take notes?Really? I guess I'm the only one here who connects TRT with TOL so I
understand if detail about TRT is off topic. On the other hand, your
personal participation in TOL is an ON topic flag I bet. I guess I
won't impose as much as asking you to make that effort, but really, I
would appreciate seeing your notes on TRT! I'm interested in how
sails/wind/rudder/freeboard/mast location interact, and if I got the
wrong idea from TRT (or even TOL) I'd like to know better. This is a
great opportunity to get education from experts without having to search
for it!It takes longer to upload these TRT episodes than I expected, I have 3
more ready but no schedule to get to the neighbor's uplink. #9 is
audible but video is so shaky I may try to extract it again. Every pass
of an old VHS cassette over the VCR heads threatens to clog the heads,
so I can't guarantee getting #10-15. When I add anything to the
collection (#1-5 so far) at
http://sdrv.ms/12cgzcR
I'll announce it here.> I did say 'implied' discovering Longitude, some mention of Harrison
> whould have removed that implication.I agree. Probably US-centrism was the reason for mentioning Sumner
instead. The TRT claim that prior to Sumner longitude was measured by
"time zone difference" sounds stupid, there were no time "zones" at sea,
right? Knowing the time in Greenwich when the local time is measureable
by solar noon or some other celestial orientation is vital. Harrison
discovered the mechanical technique that made clocks accurate enough to
measure longitude by precise time difference.> Masefield's long trick is a reference to steering (with the helm!).
> Contrary to common belief steering is often more disliked than any other
> duty onboard primarily because it can be incredibly boring,
> alone, constantly watching a compass or physically exhausting fighting a
> kicking wheel and the hour 'trick' one does at the wheel can feel an
> eternity, woebetide any man late to take his turn at the wheel
> especially on a cold wet night!That is a surprise, I thought it would be easy duty. It's not clear to
me how helmsman or officer decides what he can do with the wheel is not
adequate and sails or course must be adjusted.What is the purpose of holystoning the deck? Is holystone pumice? Seems
like wet polishing would eliminate splinters for barefoot sailors, but
also eliminate all traction when wet ?![Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:> Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?
Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
lot easier, what you've provided is useful.> Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
> part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
> to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
> centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
> or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
> direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
> I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
> answer one direct question at a time.No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.> Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
> of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
> butter melts then head West',this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics> wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
> vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
> the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
> at the most two spokes from midships,That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?> as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
> difficult she is to handle.Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
when boat is heeling? I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
horizontal are common?> rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
> in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
> heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
the rail?> the motion
> threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
> deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
> go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink
> 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
> Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
> very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
> direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
> below that and so on, soThe bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
highest sail luffing.> preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
> 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
> Helm Down'that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
the highest small sail is filled again> Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
> hence the name,see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
floats
Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?What is going on when I hear:
"I don't want her in irons"
"prepare to come about"
Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
to leewardLee
Wow! Loads more questions. I'll tackle a few so the burden doesn't fall all on R. (I'll snip some bits below and leave the bits I'll try to answer.)Actually, in those days, some sailors didn't trust the captain – the superstition that the captain sailing them straight away from land, with no sign of land ahead after more than a month (sometimes even less) believed their captain was insane and would sail them of the edge of the world. Even Columbus had to deal with grumblings of that sort as he sailed for what he hoped (and thought) was India. His crew was on the verge of mutiny when they sighted land, now known as the Americas. Some crewmembers were loyal to the end, but not everyone was.
Markings on the wheel: There is what's called "the master spoke". This is the spoke on the wheel that is at the top of the wheel when the rudder is amidships, and that spoke is usually marked with what's called a Turk's Head Knot. (Just Google Turk's Head; it will be easier that way.) Some helms had a rudder angle indicator on them, but thus was very rare. Usually it was one of the qualifications of a helmsman to know where the rudder was by how many turns of the wheel were made. And as a side note, most of the major steering is done by trimming and moving the sails. The rudder is more of a "fine tuner" for the course, and is very useful in turning the ship enough to "spill the wind from the sails" as the ship makes large turns, thus making it easier for the crew to handle the sails. (Try to do something with a large picnic blanket when the wind is blowing hard into it; it's not easy, until you turn so the blanket doesn't catch the wind. So, too, with sails.)
Each ship is different, and each has a different steering mechanism. The Cutty Sark, for example, has (let me see if I can explain this) a huge opposing screw attached to the wheel such that when the wheel is turned, each end of the screw moves a rod towards the center of the screw, and the rods in turn move an arm that's attached to the rudder post, which moves the rudder in one direction. Turning the wheel the other way does the same thing in reverse. This whole mechanism is covered by a Steering Box. (See these photos of a sailing ship with its steering box cover, both in place, and removed and sitting off to the right with a large "1886" on it; its steering mechanism is very similar to that of Cutty Sark's and should make it easier to visualize what I tried with difficulty to explain above. Also note that the master spoke is marked on the wheel's upright spoke by a pin on the outer edge that's different than the other pins, though rather than having a Turk's Head on it, it's a differently-carved pin – best visible in the 3rd photo, as is the lashing on the wheel's bottom spoke to keep wayward hands from turning it:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca1400/ca1493/photos/033466pv.jpg
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca1400/ca1493/photos/033470pv.jpg
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca1400/ca1493/photos/033469pv.jpg
In this final photo you can see the tiller under the steering mechanism; the tiller would be used if the mechanism suffered catastrophic failure. Then block and tackle would be brought out and made fast to the aft end of the tiller to it could be pulled to one side or the other, and the forward end – where the rudder post is just abaft the wheel – would be locked in place so the tiller could move the rudder.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca1400/ca1493/photos/033468pv.jpg)
In this case, the wheel wouldn't kick back on you too badly; the rudder would have to fight the huge screw first. Some ships, such as Cutty Sark's rival, Thermopylae, had a vertical steering post, meaning the wheel was attached to the rudder post via gears interlocking at about 90 degrees: the vertical gear attached to the wheel, the horizontal gear to the rudder post. This sort of steering mechanism is a more "direct connect" between the wheel and rudder, and therefor gives the rudder more "kicking power" against the wheel – like not having power steering.With the steering, again each ship is going to be different when it comes to how many turns will move the rudder how far, and the size of the wheel will determine how many spokes it has. (The nominal number is 6 or 8 spokes.) On the buoy tender I was stationed on in the Coast Guard in the early 1980s we had a 3-foot diameter, 8-spoke wheel: all brass tubing with no pins on the outer edge, but a Turk's Head on the master spoke. One full 360-degree turn of the wheel gave you 6 degrees of rudder.
On most ships, 30 degrees is considered full rudder (35 is hard or emergency rudder, and yes, you can turn a rudder so far that it will jam, although most steering mechanisms have "stops" in them to prevent this). The number of turns from amidships to left/right full rudder will depend on the ship and her steering mechanism. As I mentioned each one is different. And the steering mechanism would determine how the wheel (and rudder) react if you just let go. A hydraulic mechanism wouldn't notice if you let go or not. A mechanism like the Cutty Sark's might start working its way back slowly, while a direct link like Thermopylae's would spin that wheel right around with the rudder as the water's resistance against it pushed it to amidships.
The rate at which the rudder answers the wheel will depend on the type of mechanism: a mechanism such as Cutty Sark's or Thermopylae's will have the rudder answer as soon as you start turning the wheel. If a ship has hydraulic steering machinery – as my buoy tender did – it will take several seconds for the rudder to answer the wheel. One quick turn of the wheel took one second, and the rudder took two seconds to answer, and the more you have to turn the wheel the longer the delay will be. (Of course if you turn the wheel slowly the rudder will move just as slowly.)
Even though I was an Electronics Tech (ET) I was still a qualified underway Quartermaster of the Watch (or QMOW), and to get that qual I had to learn the ship's helm. I got so good at it that I could keep track in my head where the rudder was by how many turns of the wheel I'd given her, and with rapid rudder commands such as from right full to left full ("Shift your rudder!") I could spin that wheel ten times, count in my head how many seconds went by, and then call out when the rudder was "Passing amidships!", and when the "Rudder is at Left 30 Degrees!" and BINGO! There she was. It got so that when we were in Refresher Training (war games with the Navy), when they killed the helmsman, the ship-riders who graded the drills would not let me take the helm because even though they put black covers over the wheel angle indicator, which was atop the helm and showed how far the wheel was turned, and the rudder angle indicator, which followed a servo attached to the rudderpost and let you know where the rudder was, I still knew it all because I could keep track of where my wheel was, and how long it took my rudder to answer a command such as above. (So I was no fun for the ship-riders; I knew too much!) So a helmsman aboard a sailing ship would not be at the wheel unattended (manning the wheel without someone breaking him in) if he didn't know his helm as well as that.Heeling: That's how far a ship "leans" to one side; it's not a term used to describe the cross-section of the hull or its shape. The more she heels, the more of her hull comes into contact with the water, ergo the more resistance she has and the less efficient her speed-making is. Also, the more she heels, the less effective her rudder will be because the rudder is no longer "pushing" the water to one side or the other, but mostly "up" or "down" depending on which side she heels to and what direction the rudder is placed. (That one's kind of hard to show, but use a piece of paper, hold it upright (no heeling) and turn it left and right as if it was a rudder. Then angle the paper to one side and do the same thing, turning the paper in-line with itself; you'll see the paper is now acting more like a diving plane than a rudder.)
And as for "common" angles of heeling, once again each ship is going to be different and the sea and wind conditions will play a part in that as well. How hard is the wind abeam and how hard is it blowing? How many sails does she have set that are catching that wind? How well is she ballasted or how heavy is she with cargo? How top-heavy is she? (Most of our Coast Guard Cutters these days are quite top-heavy, and it doesn't take much to have them heeling.) Lots of factors to take into account, so there really is no "common" angle for heeling.Heeling and taking water over the rail: Again that will depend on the design of the ship. How much freeboard (the amount of her sides above the waterline to the rail) does she have? Also, how loaded with cargo is she? (The more she's loaded, the more she'll settle and the less freeboard she'll have – hence the need for the Plimsoll Mark to prevent overloading.) It also depends on the seas; calmer seas will have water breaking over the rails far less often than choppy seas, as in one case she'll just glide over the water, and in the other she'll be pitching or rolling (or both, which gives her a sort of "cork screw" motion – a motion I never got used to!). And just because she might be heeling enough to take water over her rails doesn't mean she'll sink. Ships are built with things like that in mind. As she rolls, the water will find its way across the deck into the waterways, and then through the scuppers, and back into the sea.
Okay… my brain hurts right now, and my pain meds are taking their toll on me. I'm going to roll into bed now and turn the other items over to R. (And of course he can feel free to add to anything I've said because I'm sure I haven't covered EVERYTHING in my comments.)
Dino.
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 13, 2013 10:22 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL> Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
> of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
> butter melts then head West',this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics> wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
> vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
> the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
> at the most two spokes from midships,That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?> as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
> difficult she is to handle.Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
when boat is heeling? I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
horizontal are common?> rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
> in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
> heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
the rail?> the motion
> threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
> deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
> go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink
Lee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristicsA good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure onboard, his was and still is the final word, onboard. Sadly some actually come to believe it in other aspects of their lives!
I've sailed with men I trust with my life and others I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit against a strong wind, (watch the Spencer Tracy film 'Captains Couragous', technically very good too) that doesn't mean you neccessarily like the good ones though. One fella I sailed under was a total parentless so & so but his navigation and seamanship was second to none such as entering a particularly difficult harbour in Brittany in thick fog by dead reckoning alone, that is with no electronic navigational aids.
"That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."
Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of gearing to reduce the load on your arms, Soren Larsen used the gearbox from a lorry, sorry, 'truck' for our colonial cousins, earlier ships used custom made 'worm' gearing. All sailing vessels will have a tiller of some sorts whatever steering system is used and it's the tiller that is then moved by another means to allow one man to move the rudder however large, even ships in the time of Columbus used the Whipstaff', a simple and crude method of moving the tiller by pivoting a vertical lever up through a slot in the deck, the lower end attached to the end of the tiller and the upper end pushed to port or starboard to steer. All tillers should have an emergency method of steering should the steering gear fail and mostly that was blocks and tackles rigged either side of the tiller to each side of the vessel, this was how the wheel came into being, as steering evolved the ends of the
rope tackles could be taken to the bottom of the whipstaff then later in history the whipstaff done away with and to a drum turned by a wheel, many big steamers were still being steered this way centuries later with chains running through tubes along the decks.
The most important aspect to steering a sailing vessel is to retain some 'feel' in the helm and to be able to make the ship react immediately to any movement of the helm, a straightforward tiller is the best for this but when vessels get larger and the tiller longer with the increased size of the rudder so becomes too difficult to handle some form of gearing has to be introduced which is where one begins to lose feel if not done well or too much.
Motor vessels are a different kettle of fish, they are being steered to a course not the wind so do not need either an immediate response or the same degree of feel in relation to the wind, many will be designed with what are known as balanced rudders, ie a small section of the rudder area forward of the rudder post which takes most if not all water pressure out of the equasion, a practice never done on sailing vessels as this can kill any feel in a helm completely but can make lighter steering in a motorship which in the early days before servo assisted steering could also allow a smaller wheel to be used.As to angle of the rudder, not really in issue except in regards to drag affecting speed, the greater the angle the greater the drag. As to angle of heel vs rudder, the further from vertical the rudder post is the less turning effect the rudder has on the vessel, put simply steering is being lost and the vessel will round up into the wind uncontrolably. This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms, each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to vertical than the other.
Knowing visually how central or 'midships' the wheel is doesn't really matter and how many full turns it takes to move the rudder only dictates sensitivity, Formula One cars = a fraction of a turn of the wheel and whoosh, it's off the track vs my old Landrover with it's huge wheel = half a turn and it gradually heads for the kerb!
The feel will tell you if things are out of kilter, too much weather helm, ie too much effort to hold her on a straight course will mean basically she's out of balance and the sails need adjusting, once you've taken the helm and settled into her you'll quickly learn how many spokes are needed to keep her on course, having a mark on the central spoke to feel in the dark or see in daylight is a simple aid to knowing how many spokes are needed for any one course but again not desperately needed.
In theory on a well balanced vessel yes, if you were to let go of the wheel the rudder should return to midships and if exceptionally well balanced will sail herself with no one touching the wheel or tiller but the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop. Steering means giving her a spoke or two, watch the compass begin it's swing back on course and before she does return the wheel to 'neutral' position and wait for the ship to swing back on course, as the desired course approaches on the compass give her those spokes again to slow her swing, watch for the compass to stop and hopefully settle on the exact course but more likely swing a degree or two past it so re-apply however many spokes are needed to bring her back and so it goes. Basically you're only actually steering her in one direction, she will
bring herself back the other way. You need to do it!
Angle of deck before taking water? Too many variables for any hard and fast rules, rule of thumb, maybe 30deg and upwards? Common angles of heel? Anything from horizontal to vertical! (almost joking!) vertical would be a broach or being knocked down, not nice.
Yes hull shape plays it's part but also the angle of the mast will mean the sails are not working efficiently. if at all and steering compromised.
The skipper of Osprey passed comment on the owners reproductive ability, intelligence and parentage in that order and in words of two syllables each………(FSB)
Yes, you've got it spot on with regards spiralling the yards.
Clean wet decks are slippy! Deck shoes make a huge difference but greasy dirty decks are more slippy when wet. They used sand as well as a stone, an early form of sandpapering!
Running is just plain dangerous especially on a heaving deck, imagine running and suddenly going weightless, heaven knows where you'd land! The effect increasing at the ends of the ship. Great fun though!
Coming about is changing course by turning the ship's bows through the eye of the wind, ie the direction the wind is coming from.
Getting caught in irons is when attempting to go about and the vessel stalls and stops dead in the water pointing straight into the wind and wont turn either way as there's no water passing over the rudder to give steerage. The solution can be to back a headsail or two by pulling it's sheet taught in the hope the wind will get on the wrong side of it and push the head of the ship across, at the same time turn the rudder in the opposite direction to help the stern swing and get the wind in a position where the rest of the sails can fill and begin to get her underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the predicament.
I have done almost this on the Soren when filming was done in Falmouth we were heading up Channel home to Brightlingsea in Essex and too close in to Portland Bill, the wind suddenly backed and pushed us into Lyme Bay. We had to quickly fire up the engine and motor out of the situation but in the days of sail wiith no motors it would have been a different problem indeed! Sailing pilots (books) all said to give Portland a very wide berth with winds ahead of the beam.
Leanora's swinging boom? I don't know the episode but booms do swing for all sorts of reasons either with or without sail set.
If sailing downwind or in very light or flukey winds in a lumpy sea on a rolling ship a boom can suddenly swing or flail about, it is common practice, even on modern yachts, to rig a preventer, a simple length of rope, to hold the boom one side or the other to help control it.
Cor blimey missus, I should write a book and tell you to buy a copy!!
Hope that answers all so far? Ask more anytime..
Richard.
— On Tue, 14/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 3:19On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:
> Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
lot easier, what you've provided is useful.> Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
> part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
> to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
> centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
> or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
> direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
> I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
> answer one direct question at a time.No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.> Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
> of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
> butter melts then head West',this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics> wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
> vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
> the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
> at the most two spokes from midships,That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?
> as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
> difficult she is to handle.Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
when boat is heeling?
I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
horizontal are common?> rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
> in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
> heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
the rail?> the motion
> threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
> deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
> go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink
> 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
> Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
> very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
> direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
> below that and so on, soThe bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
highest sail luffing.> preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
> 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
> Helm Down'that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
the highest small sail is filled again> Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
> hence the name,see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
floats
Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?What is going on when I hear:
"I don't want her in irons"
"prepare to come about"
Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
to leewardLee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 5/14/2013 1:52 AM, LambuLambu@aol.com wrote:> Wow! Loads more
questions. I'll tackle a few so the burden doesn't fall> all on R. (I'll snip some bits below and leave the bits I'll try to answer.)
Thanks for the explanations & photos! I can see how that double screw
works. And now I remember seeing a turks head knot on a wheel spoke, I
hadn't thought about it marking rudder position.Wow! Great reply. I sent one last night answering some of this. I wonder why it never came through?Watch… it will show up well after this discussion is over.
Dino.
—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 9:17 am
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OLthis is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristicsA good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure onboard, his was and still is the final word, onboard. Sadly some actually come to believe it in other aspects of their lives!
I've sailed with men I trust with my life and others I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit against a strong wind, (watch the Spencer Tracy film 'Captains Couragous', technically very good too) that doesn't mean you neccessarily like the good ones though. One fella I sailed under was a total parentless so & so but his navigation and seamanship was second to none such as entering a particularly difficult harbour in Brittany in thick fog by dead reckoning alone, that is with no electronic navigational aids."That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of gearing to reduce the load on your arms, Soren Larsen used the gearbox from a lorry, sorry, 'truck' for our colonial cousins, earlier ships used custom made 'worm' gearing. All sailing vessels will have a tiller of some sorts whatever steering system is used and it's the tiller that is then moved by another means to allow one man to move the rudder however large, even ships in the time of Columbus used the Whipstaff', a simple and crude method of moving the tiller by pivoting a vertical lever up through a slot in the deck, the lower end attached to the end of the tiller and the upper end pushed to port or starboard to steer. All tillers should have an emergency method of steering should the steering gear fail and mostly that was blocks and tackles rigged either side of the tiller to each side of the vessel, this was how the wheel came into being, as steering evolved the ends of the
rope tackles could be taken to the bottom of the whipstaff then later in history the whipstaff done away with and to a drum turned by a wheel, many big steamers were still being steered this way centuries later with chains running through tubes along the decks.The most important aspect to steering a sailing vessel is to retain some 'feel' in the helm and to be able to make the ship react immediately to any movement of the helm, a straightforward tiller is the best for this but when vessels get larger and the tiller longer with the increased size of the rudder so becomes too difficult to handle some form of gearing has to be introduced which is where one begins to lose feel if not done well or too much.
Motor vessels are a different kettle of fish, they are being steered to a course not the wind so do not need either an immediate response or the same degree of feel in relation to the wind, many will be designed with what are known as balanced rudders, ie a small section of the rudder area forward of the rudder post which takes most if not all water pressure out of the equasion, a practice never done on sailing vessels as this can kill any feel in a helm completely but can make lighter steering in a motorship which in the early days before servo assisted steering could also allow a smaller wheel to be used.
As to angle of the rudder, not really in issue except in regards to drag affecting speed, the greater the angle the greater the drag. As to angle of heel vs rudder, the further from vertical the rudder post is the less turning effect the rudder has on the vessel, put simply steering is being lost and the vessel will round up into the wind uncontrolably. This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms, each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to vertical than the other.
Knowing visually how central or 'midships' the wheel is doesn't really matter and how many full turns it takes to move the rudder only dictates sensitivity, Formula One cars = a fraction of a turn of the wheel and whoosh, it's off the track vs my old Landrover with it's huge wheel = half a turn and it gradually heads for the kerb!
The feel will tell you if things are out of kilter, too much weather helm, ie too much effort to hold her on a straight course will mean basically she's out of balance and the sails need adjusting, once you've taken the helm and settled into her you'll quickly learn how many spokes are needed to keep her on course, having a mark on the central spoke to feel in the dark or see in daylight is a simple aid to knowing how many spokes are needed for any one course but again not desperately needed.In theory on a well balanced vessel yes, if you were to let go of the wheel the rudder should return to midships and if exceptionally well balanced will sail herself with no one touching the wheel or tiller but the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop. Steering means giving her a spoke or two, watch the compass begin it's swing back on course and before she does return the wheel to 'neutral' position and wait for the ship to swing back on course, as the desired course approaches on the compass give her those spokes again to slow her swing, watch for the compass to stop and hopefully settle on the exact course but more likely swing a degree or two past it so re-apply however many spokes are needed to bring her back and so it goes. Basically you're only actually steering her in one direction, she will
bring herself back the other way. You need to do it!Angle of deck before taking water? Too many variables for any hard and fast rules, rule of thumb, maybe 30deg and upwards? Common angles of heel? Anything from horizontal to vertical! (almost joking!) vertical would be a broach or being knocked down, not nice.
Yes hull shape plays it's part but also the angle of the mast will mean the sails are not working efficiently. if at all and steering compromised.
The skipper of Osprey passed comment on the owners reproductive ability, intelligence and parentage in that order and in words of two syllables each………(FSB)
Yes, you've got it spot on with regards spiralling the yards.
Clean wet decks are slippy! Deck shoes make a huge difference but greasy dirty decks are more slippy when wet. They used sand as well as a stone, an early form of sandpapering!
Running is just plain dangerous especially on a heaving deck, imagine running and suddenly going weightless, heaven knows where you'd land! The effect increasing at the ends of the ship. Great fun though!Coming about is changing course by turning the ship's bows through the eye of the wind, ie the direction the wind is coming from.
Getting caught in irons is when attempting to go about and the vessel stalls and stops dead in the water pointing straight into the wind and wont turn either way as there's no water passing over the rudder to give steerage. The solution can be to back a headsail or two by pulling it's sheet taught in the hope the wind will get on the wrong side of it and push the head of the ship across, at the same time turn the rudder in the opposite direction to help the stern swing and get the wind in a position where the rest of the sails can fill and begin to get her underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the predicament.
I have done almost this on the Soren when filming was done in Falmouth we were heading up Channel home to Brightlingsea in Essex and too close in to Portland Bill, the wind suddenly backed and pushed us into Lyme Bay. We had to quickly fire up the engine and motor out of the situation but in the days of sail wiith no motors it would have been a different problem indeed! Sailing pilots (books) all said to give Portland a very wide berth with winds ahead of the beam.Leanora's swinging boom? I don't know the episode but booms do swing for all sorts of reasons either with or without sail set.
If sailing downwind or in very light or flukey winds in a lumpy sea on a rolling ship a boom can suddenly swing or flail about, it is common practice, even on modern yachts, to rig a preventer, a simple length of rope, to hold the boom one side or the other to help control it.Cor blimey missus, I should write a book and tell you to buy a copy!!
Hope that answers all so far? Ask more anytime..
Richard.
— On Tue, 14/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 3:19On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:
> Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
lot easier, what you've provided is useful.> Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
> part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
> to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
> centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
> or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
> direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
> I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
> answer one direct question at a time.No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.> Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
> of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
> butter melts then head West',this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics> wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
> vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
> the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
> at the most two spokes from midships,That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?> as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
> difficult she is to handle.Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
when boat is heeling?
I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
horizontal are common?> rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
> in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
> heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
the rail?> the motion
> threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
> deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
> go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink
> 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
> Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
> very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
> direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
> below that and so on, soThe bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
highest sail luffing.> preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
> 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
> Helm Down'that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
the highest small sail is filled again> Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
> hence the name,see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
floats
Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?What is going on when I hear:
"I don't want her in irons"
"prepare to come about"
Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
to leewardLee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I look forward to seeing your response, wherever it has got to! (sorry if I've contradicted anything you have written!)
Richard.— On Tue, 14/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:
From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 19:39Wow! Great reply. I sent one last night answering some of this. I wonder why it never came through?
Watch… it will show up well after this discussion is over.
Dino.
—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 9:17 am
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OLthis is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristicsA good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure onboard, his was and still is the final word, onboard. Sadly some actually come to believe it in other aspects of their lives!
I've sailed with men I trust with my life and others I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit against a strong wind, (watch the Spencer Tracy film 'Captains Couragous', technically very good too) that doesn't mean you neccessarily like the good ones though. One fella I sailed under was a total parentless so & so but his navigation and seamanship was second to none such as entering a particularly difficult harbour in Brittany in thick fog by dead reckoning alone, that is with no electronic navigational aids."That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of gearing to reduce the load on your arms, Soren Larsen used the gearbox from a lorry, sorry, 'truck' for our colonial cousins, earlier ships used custom made 'worm' gearing. All sailing vessels will have a tiller of some sorts whatever steering system is used and it's the tiller that is then moved by another means to allow one man to move the rudder however large, even ships in the time of Columbus used the Whipstaff', a simple and crude method of moving the tiller by pivoting a vertical lever up through a slot in the deck, the lower end attached to the end of the tiller and the upper end pushed to port or starboard to steer. All tillers should have an emergency method of steering should the steering gear fail and mostly that was blocks and tackles rigged either side of the tiller to each side of the vessel, this was how the wheel came into being, as steering evolved the ends of the
rope tackles could be taken to the bottom of the whipstaff then later in history the whipstaff done away with and to a drum turned by a wheel, many big steamers were still being steered this way centuries later with chains running through tubes along the decks.The most important aspect to steering a sailing vessel is to retain some 'feel' in the helm and to be able to make the ship react immediately to any movement of the helm, a straightforward tiller is the best for this but when vessels get larger and the tiller longer with the increased size of the rudder so becomes too difficult to handle some form of gearing has to be introduced which is where one begins to lose feel if not done well or too much.
Motor vessels are a different kettle of fish, they are being steered to a course not the wind so do not need either an immediate response or the same degree of feel in relation to the wind, many will be designed with what are known as balanced rudders, ie a small section of the rudder area forward of the rudder post which takes most if not all water pressure out of the equasion, a practice never done on sailing vessels as this can kill any feel in a helm completely but can make lighter steering in a motorship which in the early days before servo assisted steering could also allow a smaller wheel to be used.
As to angle of the rudder, not really in issue except in regards to drag affecting speed, the greater the angle the greater the drag. As to angle of heel vs rudder, the further from vertical the rudder post is the less turning effect the rudder has on the vessel, put simply steering is being lost and the vessel will round up into the wind uncontrolably. This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms, each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to vertical than the other.
Knowing visually how central or 'midships' the wheel is doesn't really matter and how many full turns it takes to move the rudder only dictates sensitivity, Formula One cars = a fraction of a turn of the wheel and whoosh, it's off the track vs my old Landrover with it's huge wheel = half a turn and it gradually heads for the kerb!
The feel will tell you if things are out of kilter, too much weather helm, ie too much effort to hold her on a straight course will mean basically she's out of balance and the sails need adjusting, once you've taken the helm and settled into her you'll quickly learn how many spokes are needed to keep her on course, having a mark on the central spoke to feel in the dark or see in daylight is a simple aid to knowing how many spokes are needed for any one course but again not desperately needed.In theory on a well balanced vessel yes, if you were to let go of the wheel the rudder should return to midships and if exceptionally well balanced will sail herself with no one touching the wheel or tiller but the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop. Steering means giving her a spoke or two, watch the compass begin it's swing back on course and before she does return the wheel to 'neutral' position and wait for the ship to swing back on course, as the desired course approaches on the compass give her those spokes again to slow her swing, watch for the compass to stop and hopefully settle on the exact course but more likely swing a degree or two past it so re-apply however many spokes are needed to bring her back and so it goes. Basically you're only actually steering her in one direction, she will
bring herself back the other way. You need to do it!Angle of deck before taking water? Too many variables for any hard and fast rules, rule of thumb, maybe 30deg and upwards? Common angles of heel? Anything from horizontal to vertical! (almost joking!) vertical would be a broach or being knocked down, not nice.
Yes hull shape plays it's part but also the angle of the mast will mean the sails are not working efficiently. if at all and steering compromised.
The skipper of Osprey passed comment on the owners reproductive ability, intelligence and parentage in that order and in words of two syllables each………(FSB)
Yes, you've got it spot on with regards spiralling the yards.
Clean wet decks are slippy! Deck shoes make a huge difference but greasy dirty decks are more slippy when wet. They used sand as well as a stone, an early form of sandpapering!
Running is just plain dangerous especially on a heaving deck, imagine running and suddenly going weightless, heaven knows where you'd land! The effect increasing at the ends of the ship. Great fun though!Coming about is changing course by turning the ship's bows through the eye of the wind, ie the direction the wind is coming from.
Getting caught in irons is when attempting to go about and the vessel stalls and stops dead in the water pointing straight into the wind and wont turn either way as there's no water passing over the rudder to give steerage. The solution can be to back a headsail or two by pulling it's sheet taught in the hope the wind will get on the wrong side of it and push the head of the ship across, at the same time turn the rudder in the opposite direction to help the stern swing and get the wind in a position where the rest of the sails can fill and begin to get her underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the predicament.
I have done almost this on the Soren when filming was done in Falmouth we were heading up Channel home to Brightlingsea in Essex and too close in to Portland Bill, the wind suddenly backed and pushed us into Lyme Bay. We had to quickly fire up the engine and motor out of the situation but in the days of sail wiith no motors it would have been a different problem indeed! Sailing pilots (books) all said to give Portland a very wide berth with winds ahead of the beam.Leanora's swinging boom? I don't know the episode but booms do swing for all sorts of reasons either with or without sail set.
If sailing downwind or in very light or flukey winds in a lumpy sea on a rolling ship a boom can suddenly swing or flail about, it is common practice, even on modern yachts, to rig a preventer, a simple length of rope, to hold the boom one side or the other to help control it.Cor blimey missus, I should write a book and tell you to buy a copy!!
Hope that answers all so far? Ask more anytime..
Richard.
— On Tue, 14/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 3:19On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:
> Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
lot easier, what you've provided is useful.> Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
> part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
> to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
> centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
> or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
> direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
> I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
> answer one direct question at a time.No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.> Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
> of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
> butter melts then head West',this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics> wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
> vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
> the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
> at the most two spokes from midships,That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?> as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
> difficult she is to handle.Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
when boat is heeling?
I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
horizontal are common?> rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
> in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
> heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
the rail?> the motion
> threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
> deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
> go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink
> 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
> Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
> very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
> direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
> below that and so on, soThe bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
highest sail luffing.> preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
> 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
> Helm Down'that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
the highest small sail is filled again> Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
> hence the name,see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
floats
Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?What is going on when I hear:
"I don't want her in irons"
"prepare to come about"
Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
to leewardLee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 5/14/2013 9:16 AM, R wrote:> A good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure
I know that grave responsibility, as Master under God, from my summer
after high school as captain of an unpowered trip 400 miles down the
Alabama River. That's me standing beside the blond who is christening
the homemade raft –
http://sdrv.ms/12cgzcR> "That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
> to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."
>
>
> Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of
> gearing to reduce the load on your arms,It isn't the reduction in force that is so rare, it's the analog
precision — where you could keep Sea Cloud's sails full with a helm
adjustment as small as 1 spoke, which would be about 1 degree of rudder
in Dino's example. And I bet the length of the rudder is < 2% of the
316' length of the ship. That is Formula 1 precision on a much larger
scale. Such a tiny adjustment of such a small piece would be lost in the
slop of a machine that is not so well-tuned.> This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms,
> each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to
> vertical than the other.Huh!
> the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a
> good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall
> overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop.I didn't know that either.
(re "in irons")
> underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the
> predicament.I never knew a sailing ship could go backward! I guess it's a small
movement, mainly rotating in place.Thanks for all the answers!
A fine ship Cap'n, a fine ship and what an adventure!
"Huh!" Doesn't translate very well with regards two rudders! I'm guessing it means you haven't seen a yacht with two? Or was that a huh of agreement or approval?The Sea Cloud steering went to show that she was well balanced that's all. I'm almost certain vessels like the Cutty Sark would be the same. It never ceases to amaze me just how small the rudder sometimes is on such large ships, in the Sark's case it's like a modern racing yacht, high aspect, narrow and tall but you can't see it now without paying to get onboard since they built that hideous greenhouse around her! Visually ruined, completely ruined..
Yes, before the advent of mechanical propulsion sailing ships would have to go backwards occasionally, they don't do it very well, in fact mostly in an uncontrollable manner and not for very far, it depends upon the rig. I was once mate onboard the Brixham Trawler 'Provident' and one beautifully tranquil summer dawn on a mooring buoy high up the River Fal in Cornwall I decided to sail her off rather than ruin the peace with the thump thump of the motor, I set all sails, primed the crew to push/haul the mizzen boom to one side and the main to the other, ie 'goose winged' and with a downstream zephyr slipped the mooring. She behaved impeccably actually answering to the helm for a few yards, pirouetted almost on the spot when I wanted her to, all sails filled on the new course and fair stood the wind for France.
Whilst working on the three mast topsail schooner 'Fulton' in Denmark we regularly sailed on and off quaysides in some ridiculously small harbours, but then most of the crew were direct descendants of Vikings!
R— On Wed, 15/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 15 May, 2013, 4:10On 5/14/2013 9:16 AM, R wrote:
> A good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figureI know that grave responsibility, as Master under God, from my summer
after high school as captain of an unpowered trip 400 miles down the
Alabama River. That's me standing beside the blond who is christening
the homemade raft –
http://sdrv.ms/12cgzcR> "That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
> to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."
>
>
> Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of
> gearing to reduce the load on your arms,It isn't the reduction in force that is so rare, it's the analog
precision — where you could keep Sea Cloud's sails full with a helm
adjustment as small as 1 spoke, which would be about 1 degree of rudder
in Dino's example. And I bet the length of the rudder is < 2% of the
316' length of the ship. That is Formula 1 precision on a much larger
scale. Such a tiny adjustment of such a small piece would be lost in the
slop of a machine that is not so well-tuned.> This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms,
> each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to
> vertical than the other.Huh!
> the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a
> good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall
> overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop.I didn't know that either.
(re "in irons")
> underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the
> predicament.I never knew a sailing ship could go backward! I guess it's a small
movement, mainly rotating in place.Thanks for all the answers!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 5/15/2013 5:09 AM, R wrote:> A fine ship Cap'n, a fine ship and what an adventure!
Not that it was intended to be a sailing ship, but I should have
remembered wind blowing the raft backwards because
our superstructure was so tall. Sometimes we had to row for hours to get
around a bend in the river.> "Huh!" Doesn't translate very well with regards two rudders! I'm
> guessing it means you haven't seen a yacht with two? Or was that a huh
> of agreement or approval?Surprise that I hadn't figured that out before. I think I've seen yachts
like that but I passed it off as redundancy and hadn't thought about why
the rudders weren't parallel. Now that you & Dino mention it it is
obvious that rudders & sails work best when they're vertical, so I
understand why there are two rudders at different angles.> crew to push/haul the mizzen boom to one side and the main to the other,
> ie 'goose winged' and with a downstream zephyr slipped the mooring. SheSomewhere in TOL the square sails are set on 3 masts but fore & mizzen
are angled parallel to each other, and main is rotated 90 degrees. I
think that was during an attempt to stop the ship? I guess wind was from
the side.I'd need to see it to be sure but your description of yards being braced in opposite directions does sound like the vessel is 'hove to' and stopped. Sometimes you might see an old painting with one mast with it's sails 'aback', this may be due to changing course rather than slowing her down or stopping like when picking up a pilot.
When we left New York returning to the UK and were clear of the channel our old man who had been master of Sorlandet for many years decided he wanted to put in a few tacks just for the hell of it, and to give the crew the practice as well.
It takes a fair amount of time to prepare all the braces so they run free, flaking them out along the deck so they don't tangle and jamb. We tacked her six times in all and by the end of it everyone was totally knackered! I've never seen so much rope covering so much deck but not once was there a jamb…
That TOL episode was possibly an older one? I don't remember full rigged ships in the later episodes. Although I do remember many shots of James and crew taken onboard the Soren and other smaller vessels but when the camera cut to the long shot it wasn't of the ship they were on but some stock shot of a much larger vessel! The Christian Radich being one.
R— On Wed, 15/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 15 May, 2013, 13:41On 5/15/2013 5:09 AM, R wrote:
> A fine ship Cap'n, a fine ship and what an adventure!Not that it was intended to be a sailing ship, but I should have
remembered wind blowing the raft backwards because
our superstructure was so tall. Sometimes we had to row for hours to get
around a bend in the river.> "Huh!" Doesn't translate very well with regards two rudders! I'm
> guessing it means you haven't seen a yacht with two? Or was that a huh
> of agreement or approval?Surprise that I hadn't figured that out before. I think I've seen yachts
like that but I passed it off as redundancy and hadn't thought about why
the rudders weren't parallel. Now that you & Dino mention it it is
obvious that rudders & sails work best when they're vertical, so I
understand why there are two rudders at different angles.> crew to push/haul the mizzen boom to one side and the main to the other,
> ie 'goose winged' and with a downstream zephyr slipped the mooring. SheSomewhere in TOL the square sails are set on 3 masts but fore & mizzen
are angled parallel to each other, and main is rotated 90 degrees. I
think that was during an attempt to stop the ship? I guess wind was from
the side.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No… no contradictions I can think of, Richard. I'll have to see if I can hunt it down, but that's unlikely as our e-mail settings purge sent mail after a day or so. I do think we were on the same wavelength, though. I did elaborate some on my helmsman quals while I was stationed on my buoy tender in the early 1980s and how I got to know my helm to the point that I didn't need a wheel angle indicator or rudder angle indicator to know where my rudder was, or how long it took to get there. (Might have thrown in a sea story or two as well to go along with that.)I also made reference to the "master spoke" on a ship's wheel being marked by (usually) a Turk's Head knot, or in some cases a differently carved wheel pin: the master spoke being at the center top of the wheel when the rudder was at amidships (if things were aligned properly). I covered how on my buoy tender one full turn of the wheel gave 6 degrees of rudder, and that on average "full" rudder was considered to be 30 degrees: hard or emergency rudder was 35 degrees – at least on the classes of ships I'd been stationed on.
I did provide links to images of the steering mechanism you described. I can find them again if my reply is forever lost in the "bit bucket". (Visual aids are good at times like that.)
Most everything else was on par with what you said, though I may have gone into more detail about freeboard and how that would come into play with heeling and taking water over the rails.
Dino.
—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 3:21 pm
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OLI look forward to seeing your response, wherever it has got to! (sorry if I've contradicted anything you have written!)
Richard.
— On Tue, 14/5/13, LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com> wrote:
From: LambuLambu@aol.com <LambuLambu@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 19:39Wow! Great reply. I sent one last night answering some of this. I wonder why it never came through?
Watch… it will show up well after this discussion is over.
Dino.
—–Original Message—–
From: R <advcour@btinternet.com>
To: shiponedingroup <shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 14, 2013 9:17 am
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OLthis is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristicsA good captain would be trusted to the hilt and is a god-like figure onboard, his was and still is the final word, onboard. Sadly some actually come to believe it in other aspects of their lives!
I've sailed with men I trust with my life and others I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit against a strong wind, (watch the Spencer Tracy film 'Captains Couragous', technically very good too) that doesn't mean you neccessarily like the good ones though. One fella I sailed under was a total parentless so & so but his navigation and seamanship was second to none such as entering a particularly difficult harbour in Brittany in thick fog by dead reckoning alone, that is with no electronic navigational aids."That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force."Yes, it does seem so on the surface but most wheels have some sort of gearing to reduce the load on your arms, Soren Larsen used the gearbox from a lorry, sorry, 'truck' for our colonial cousins, earlier ships used custom made 'worm' gearing. All sailing vessels will have a tiller of some sorts whatever steering system is used and it's the tiller that is then moved by another means to allow one man to move the rudder however large, even ships in the time of Columbus used the Whipstaff', a simple and crude method of moving the tiller by pivoting a vertical lever up through a slot in the deck, the lower end attached to the end of the tiller and the upper end pushed to port or starboard to steer. All tillers should have an emergency method of steering should the steering gear fail and mostly that was blocks and tackles rigged either side of the tiller to each side of the vessel, this was how the wheel came into being, as steering evolved the ends of the
rope tackles could be taken to the bottom of the whipstaff then later in history the whipstaff done away with and to a drum turned by a wheel, many big steamers were still being steered this way centuries later with chains running through tubes along the decks.The most important aspect to steering a sailing vessel is to retain some 'feel' in the helm and to be able to make the ship react immediately to any movement of the helm, a straightforward tiller is the best for this but when vessels get larger and the tiller longer with the increased size of the rudder so becomes too difficult to handle some form of gearing has to be introduced which is where one begins to lose feel if not done well or too much.
Motor vessels are a different kettle of fish, they are being steered to a course not the wind so do not need either an immediate response or the same degree of feel in relation to the wind, many will be designed with what are known as balanced rudders, ie a small section of the rudder area forward of the rudder post which takes most if not all water pressure out of the equasion, a practice never done on sailing vessels as this can kill any feel in a helm completely but can make lighter steering in a motorship which in the early days before servo assisted steering could also allow a smaller wheel to be used.
As to angle of the rudder, not really in issue except in regards to drag affecting speed, the greater the angle the greater the drag. As to angle of heel vs rudder, the further from vertical the rudder post is the less turning effect the rudder has on the vessel, put simply steering is being lost and the vessel will round up into the wind uncontrolably. This is why many ultra modern racing yachts have two rudders and helms, each rudder splayed outwards so when heeled one rudder is nearer to vertical than the other.
Knowing visually how central or 'midships' the wheel is doesn't really matter and how many full turns it takes to move the rudder only dictates sensitivity, Formula One cars = a fraction of a turn of the wheel and whoosh, it's off the track vs my old Landrover with it's huge wheel = half a turn and it gradually heads for the kerb!
The feel will tell you if things are out of kilter, too much weather helm, ie too much effort to hold her on a straight course will mean basically she's out of balance and the sails need adjusting, once you've taken the helm and settled into her you'll quickly learn how many spokes are needed to keep her on course, having a mark on the central spoke to feel in the dark or see in daylight is a simple aid to knowing how many spokes are needed for any one course but again not desperately needed.In theory on a well balanced vessel yes, if you were to let go of the wheel the rudder should return to midships and if exceptionally well balanced will sail herself with no one touching the wheel or tiller but the vessel will probably just keep swinging up into the wind which is a good thing, a kind of safety measure and helps you steer or if you fall overboard as a solo sailor the yacht will stop. Steering means giving her a spoke or two, watch the compass begin it's swing back on course and before she does return the wheel to 'neutral' position and wait for the ship to swing back on course, as the desired course approaches on the compass give her those spokes again to slow her swing, watch for the compass to stop and hopefully settle on the exact course but more likely swing a degree or two past it so re-apply however many spokes are needed to bring her back and so it goes. Basically you're only actually steering her in one direction, she will
bring herself back the other way. You need to do it!Angle of deck before taking water? Too many variables for any hard and fast rules, rule of thumb, maybe 30deg and upwards? Common angles of heel? Anything from horizontal to vertical! (almost joking!) vertical would be a broach or being knocked down, not nice.
Yes hull shape plays it's part but also the angle of the mast will mean the sails are not working efficiently. if at all and steering compromised.
The skipper of Osprey passed comment on the owners reproductive ability, intelligence and parentage in that order and in words of two syllables each………(FSB)
Yes, you've got it spot on with regards spiralling the yards.
Clean wet decks are slippy! Deck shoes make a huge difference but greasy dirty decks are more slippy when wet. They used sand as well as a stone, an early form of sandpapering!
Running is just plain dangerous especially on a heaving deck, imagine running and suddenly going weightless, heaven knows where you'd land! The effect increasing at the ends of the ship. Great fun though!Coming about is changing course by turning the ship's bows through the eye of the wind, ie the direction the wind is coming from.
Getting caught in irons is when attempting to go about and the vessel stalls and stops dead in the water pointing straight into the wind and wont turn either way as there's no water passing over the rudder to give steerage. The solution can be to back a headsail or two by pulling it's sheet taught in the hope the wind will get on the wrong side of it and push the head of the ship across, at the same time turn the rudder in the opposite direction to help the stern swing and get the wind in a position where the rest of the sails can fill and begin to get her underway again, basically go astern or backwards to reverse out of the predicament.
I have done almost this on the Soren when filming was done in Falmouth we were heading up Channel home to Brightlingsea in Essex and too close in to Portland Bill, the wind suddenly backed and pushed us into Lyme Bay. We had to quickly fire up the engine and motor out of the situation but in the days of sail wiith no motors it would have been a different problem indeed! Sailing pilots (books) all said to give Portland a very wide berth with winds ahead of the beam.Leanora's swinging boom? I don't know the episode but booms do swing for all sorts of reasons either with or without sail set.
If sailing downwind or in very light or flukey winds in a lumpy sea on a rolling ship a boom can suddenly swing or flail about, it is common practice, even on modern yachts, to rig a preventer, a simple length of rope, to hold the boom one side or the other to help control it.Cor blimey missus, I should write a book and tell you to buy a copy!!
Hope that answers all so far? Ask more anytime..
Richard.
— On Tue, 14/5/13, Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com> wrote:
From: Lee Bonnifield <lee78@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: [shiponedingroup] Re: The Running Tide 10 minute filler after 1977 PBS broadcast of OL
To: shiponedingroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 May, 2013, 3:19On 5/12/2013 9:54 AM, R wrote:
> Gosh, you want a whole treatise on the subject of naval architecture eh?Thanks for all the info! I understand how specific questions would be a
lot easier, what you've provided is useful.> Everything to do with the design of a vessel is a compromise and each
> part has a direct effect on the rest, it's far too complicated a subject
> to cover in one short email, prismatic coefficients, lateral plain
> centres, the curve of areas when drawn giving an indication of weather
> or lee helm at the drawing board stage but that in turn being as a
> direct correlation to the centre of effort of combined or reefed sails,
> I can hear you snoring already! It would be much more simple for me to
> answer one direct question at a time.No snoring, but I understand this is a very complicated problem, trying
to go X direction when the wind is blowing Y direction. and sails are
angled Z, rudder W, keel V, submerged hull shape U.> Pre Harrison Longitude was guessed, it was common practise from the days
> of Columbus to sail South to a known Latitude, 'Sail South until the
> butter melts then head West',this is hilarious, where would we be if pre-Harrison sailors didn't
trust captains with vague heuristics> wind I felt a pull at the wheel, weather helm it's known as, ie the
> vessel wants to round up into the wind and you need to apply pressure on
> the wheel to stop her and all it took to hold her on course was one or
> at the most two spokes from midships,That is astounding, precision engineering that allows such a huge mass
to be kept centered in an unstable equilibrium with such a small force.I don't see any marker on the wheel that would let you know that the
rudder is directly in line with the keel. Is there one, how do you know
how many spokes you are from midships? I see 8 spokes on Soren Larsen
wheel. How many 360 degree turns of the wheel would move the rudder from
full left to full right? What angle to keel is full left? If you let go
of the wheel. will the rudder line up with the keel?> as the further a vessel heels the slower she will be and more
> difficult she is to handle.Because of the different shape of the hull cross section below water
when boat is heeling?
I see that a symmetrical cross section (no
heeling) would be most sensitive to rudder direction. A horizontal deck
might happen only with sailing down wind, what deck angles from
horizontal are common?> rest of us were in our bunks. During his watch the wind slowly increased
> in strength and due to his inexperience he let the ship
> heel more and more until she was taking water over the rail,What angle from horizontal does the deck have to be to take water over
the rail?> the motion
> threw the very experienced Dutch skipper out of his bunk! He came on
> deck to find the owner with a huge grin saying "Man look at the old girl
> go!!". I can't repeat what the skipper said in reply……. !Let's make this deck more horizontal please before we sink
> 'stacking' on Sea Cloud, each yard being held in it's position by a
> Brace from each end. This means that the smallest sail, the one at the
> very top of the mast, will have it's windward edge closer to the
> direction from where the wind is coming than the one below and the one
> below that and so on, soThe bit about stacking the sails in a spiral makes sense, and I hadn't
noticed it. So, the wind changes direction, the helmsman notices the
highest sail luffing.> preferably by regularly keeping a weather eye on the
> 'Luff' of that small sail and be able to take action by 'Putting the
> Helm Down'that is, adjusting the angle of the rudder so that the keel comes closer
to the direction of the wind (closer to sailing directly downwind) and
the highest small sail is filled again> Holy stoning with a block of soft sandstone the size of a large bible,
> hence the name,see, I learned something, I figured it was pumice & holy because pumice
floats
Cleaning a dirty deck improves traction, OK. Why isn't a heeling clean
wet deck so slippery that you can't run on it?What is going on when I hear:
"I don't want her in irons"
"prepare to come about"
Leonora almost gets walloped with a swinging boom — altho I guess that
happened when a rope was loose (S3N1), that boom should have been tied
to leewardLee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.